Builders moaning about EWI

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europa

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Same builders that have f***** up my head height on first floor and want to lose the beam in the plaster are now moaning about my EWI requirement.

I've specified 90mm EPS EWI, but builders are doing their best to talk me out of it. They say it is bound to get damaged. They even showed me a sample block today and destroiyed it just to prove their point. They also say they need to have an expansion joint on side elevation, which will be ugly.

What do you guys think about EWI? Does it really have so many pitfalls?
 
we regularly install 90mm

need more info to comment on the expansion.

as for damage. it can get damaged by excessive force and yes its not as solid as render only. but you are i guess using ewi for thermal value?
you can use armoured mesh or.double mesh 1st say 2m high to strengthen the system.
there is also a system.called soltherm out now if you google them they have a you yube video of a hammer test on their system
 
I will ask them tomorrow to clarify exactly why they need an expansion joint. But my understanding is it's because they plan to do the gable whilst they have the scaffolding up (for the loft conversion), then build the side extension and finally finish off what they missed above the side extension.
 
Same builders that have f***** up my head height on first floor and want to lose the beam in the plaster are now moaning about my EWI requirement.

I've specified 90mm EPS EWI, but builders are doing their best to talk me out of it. They say it is bound to get damaged. They even showed me a sample block today and destroiyed it just to prove their point. They also say they need to have an expansion joint on side elevation, which will be ugly.

What do you guys think about EWI? Does it really have so many pitfalls?
Get it done , doubt I'd be worried how hard or soft it is when sitting on my armchair at Christmas nice and warm while it's freezing outside, think I'd be counting up how much money I not spending on heating bils instead
 
I will ask them tomorrow to clarify exactly why they need an expansion joint. But my understanding is it's because they plan to do the gable whilst they have the scaffolding up (for the loft conversion), then build the side extension and finally finish off what they missed above the side extension.


that sounds a grey area. factors for doing that.
no extra charge for scaffold while extension being built.

against you will have a vertical mastic joint where render meets up.


but why are you ewi the new extension?
 
that sounds a grey area. factors for doing that.
no extra charge for scaffold while extension being built.

against you will have a vertical mastic joint where render meets up.


but why are you ewi the new extension?

I'm not. The side extension will be cavity wall; the EWI only goes above it.
 
I will ask them tomorrow to clarify exactly why they need an expansion joint. But my understanding is it's because they plan to do the gable whilst they have the scaffolding up (for the loft conversion), then build the side extension and finally finish off what they missed above the side extension.

Sounds like builder either
A) Thought they could do it but didn't have a clue and guessed a price but now know they are out of there depth
Or
B) They can't find anyone to do it within there budget.

Sounds like another excuse same as the bull they been giving you about the steels.



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Get it done , doubt I'd be worried how hard or soft it is when sitting on my armchair at Christmas nice and warm while it's freezing outside, think I'd be counting up how much money I not spending on heating bils instead

Yes, i'm getting it done. It was in my spec, and builders have to do it if i insist. Imo, i think they only now realise how costly it is and are trying to avoid it. In the attached pic, you can see what they are proposing to use. Does it look like EPS? They even asked how to handle the air vent. Isn't that their job to figure out?!
 

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Yes, i'm getting it done. It was in my spec, and builders have to do it if i insist. Imo, i think they only now realise how costly it is and are trying to avoid it. In the attached pic, you can see what they are proposing to use. Does it look like EPS? They even asked how to handle the air vent. Isn't that their job to figure out?!
yes that is graphite eps. exactly what you need.

am.i right in thinking this is all on 1 elevation?
ewi gable down so far. put a horizontal expansion joint in then carry below when they are ready?
air vent. you can buy from merchants and cut into insulation to act as an extension to the original
 
Sounds like builder either
A) Thought they could do it but didn't have a clue and guessed a price but now know they are out of there depth
Or
B) They can't find anyone to do it within there budget.

Sounds like another excuse same as the bull they been giving you about the steels.

A) most likely. I had a quotation ages ago from a proper EWI company for 10k, albeit incl scaffolding etc. No wonder they are trying to avoid it! Problem now is i worry they are going to screw it up, hence why i'm trying to educate myself.
 
yes that is graphite eps. exactly what you need.

am.i right in thinking this is all on 1 elevation?
ewi gable down so far. put a horizontal expansion joint in then carry below when they are ready?
air vent. you can buy from merchants and cut into insulation to act as an extension to the original

Thanks, good to know they at least got the right product. But, as i said in the OP, they showed me a sample block today and hit it with a hammer to prove their point about it being easy to damage. And said it can't be repaired once damaged!

It's not just one elevation; they are also doing front and back of house. But only side and rear will have extensions hence only upper parts of house will be done there.

They've sent me this email explaining their issues:
"The property next door has a gutter running on the party line, this will be affected back and front. Our finish line will pass their house by 90mm. We need to do the insulation and render on the gable wall whilst the scaffold is up, this means a break in the render somewhere for us to do the extensions, you will have a line running across the wall."
 
It's 90mm eps for a reason, because it meets the building regs of a u value of .30
As said just expand the live air brick with a upvc former. A well thought out expansion bead doesn't have to look bad I guess, building regs are 8 linear metres.
The work would only be charged at 5% as opposed to 20% vat as its classed as energy saving work.
Even a standard ewi wall will take a fair bit of pressure, the base adhesives are remarkably strong.
 
you do not need to do panel in 2 hits.
builders should have drawings of roof heights.

get them to pin lead flashing at that height.

your basetrack will then pinch that lead enabling you to work up and finish the whole panel.

downpipes etc can be altered and diverted to suit easily enough.

im happy to explain more by email or phone to help you explain to builders.
Thanks, good to know they at least got the right product. But, as i said in the OP, they showed me a sample block today and hit it with a hammer to prove their point about it being easy to damage. And said it can't be repaired once damaged!

It's not just one elevation; they are also doing front and back of house. But only side and rear will have extensions hence only upper parts of house will be done there.

They've sent me this email explaining their issues:
"The property next door has a gutter running on the party line, this will be affected back and front. Our finish line will pass their house by 90mm. We need to do the insulation and render on the gable wall whilst the scaffold is up, this means a break in the render somewhere for us to do the extensions, you will have a line running across the wall."
 
Sounds like builder either
A) Thought they could do it but didn't have a clue and guessed a price but now know they are out of there depth
Or
B) They can't find anyone to do it within there budget.

Sounds like another excuse same as the bull they been giving you about the steels.



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sounds likely.
 
you do not need to do panel in 2 hits.
builders should have drawings of roof heights.

get them to pin lead flashing at that height.

your basetrack will then pinch that lead enabling you to work up and finish the whole panel.

downpipes etc can be altered and diverted to suit easily enough.

im happy to explain more by email or phone to help you explain to builders.
Yep moving down pipes is something and nothing.
 
you do not need to do panel in 2 hits.
builders should have drawings of roof heights.

get them to pin lead flashing at that height.

your basetrack will then pinch that lead enabling you to work up and finish the whole panel.

downpipes etc can be altered and diverted to suit easily enough.

im happy to explain more by email or phone to help you explain to builders.

@Dansouthcoast84, i've DMd you in regard to your kind offer.
 
I agree with everything that Dan and owls have said, to be bluntly honest I think your builders are trying to swerve the Ewi as they clearly haven't a clue what their doing, my advice would probably get in a render/Ewi firm to quote the works in hand and inform the builders that tit instructing a third party to complete other works in their contract and deduct the Ewi cost from their final account, but first you need to ascertain the figure your builders have allowed for the completion of Ewi, the last thing you want is builders chancing a specialist job like Ewi and fcuking it up as when they've been paid I would bet my b*ll***s on it they won't be back for any remedial works on the Ewi which can potentially deteriorate the life expectancy of your system, that's another thing what system is being installed? Are they registered installers? And do you have an installation manual or a point of reference to keep an eye on what their doing? As this could become a costly mistake unless you nip it in the bud.
Out of interest what area are you in as I've been to a job recently that sounds very similar to your own?


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I agree with everything that Dan and owls have said, to be bluntly honest I think your builders are trying to swerve the Ewi as they clearly haven't a clue what their doing, my advice would probably get in a render/Ewi firm to quote the works in hand and inform the builders that tit instructing a third party to complete other works in their contract and deduct the Ewi cost from their final account, but first you need to ascertain the figure your builders have allowed for the completion of Ewi, the last thing you want is builders chancing a specialist job like Ewi and fcuking it up as when they've been paid I would bet my b*ll***s on it they won't be back for any remedial works on the Ewi which can potentially deteriorate the life expectancy of your system, that's another thing what system is being installed? Are they registered installers? And do you have an installation manual or a point of reference to keep an eye on what their doing? As this could become a costly mistake unless you nip it in the bud.
Out of interest what area are you in as I've been to a job recently that sounds very similar to your own?


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You so right, still baffle's me why the hell "Builders" would even think of trying to do the ewi !

No offence to any builders on here , ffs
 
I agree with everything that Dan and owls have said, to be bluntly honest I think your builders are trying to swerve the Ewi as they clearly haven't a clue what their doing, my advice would probably get in a render/Ewi firm to quote the works in hand and inform the builders that tit instructing a third party to complete other works in their contract and deduct the Ewi cost from their final account, but first you need to ascertain the figure your builders have allowed for the completion of Ewi, the last thing you want is builders chancing a specialist job like Ewi and fcuking it up as when they've been paid I would bet my b*ll***s on it they won't be back for any remedial works on the Ewi which can potentially deteriorate the life expectancy of your system, that's another thing what system is being installed? Are they registered installers? And do you have an installation manual or a point of reference to keep an eye on what their doing? As this could become a costly mistake unless you nip it in the bud.
Out of interest what area are you in as I've been to a job recently that sounds very similar to your own?

I'm in NW London.
They are not registered installers, in fact i doubt they've EVER done it before as they have been doing their best to talk me out of it since the start. They keep on telling me it's a bad idea, that no one does it, that i don't need it as my windows will be new and loft insulated blah blah blah.
Thing is: it's part of the renovation contract, so i can't easily get in a third party to do it. To be honest, i had expected they would outsource it; but, given they clearly don't want to, i can't really insist.
 
I'm in NW London.
They are not registered installers, in fact i doubt they've EVER done it before as they have been doing their best to talk me out of it since the start. They keep on telling me it's a bad idea, that no one does it, that i don't need it as my windows will be new and loft insulated blah blah blah.
Thing is: it's part of the renovation contract, so i can't easily get in a third party to do it. To be honest, i had expected they would outsource it; but, given they clearly don't want to, i can't really insist.
Your best bet it to get a third party installer to do this work or at least pass their details on to your builder and discuss it between themselves whatever you do DONT let your builder do this Ewi or you will regret it every time you come out your house


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have to agree with mucky.
its not just a case of slap the slab to the wall.
trims tracks fixings etc have to be right...
and the actual render is hard.enough of you havent used it
 
I'm in NW London.
They are not registered installers, in fact i doubt they've EVER done it before as they have been doing their best to talk me out of it since the start. They keep on telling me it's a bad idea, that no one does it, that i don't need it as my windows will be new and loft insulated blah blah blah.
Thing is: it's part of the renovation contract, so i can't easily get in a third party to do it. To be honest, i had expected they would outsource it; but, given they clearly don't want to, i can't really insist.
Bad idea ? Ewi is best idea ever and done correctly could look as good as any of these,even the brick effect is ewi underneath !

3003558.jpg


And fuel bills nearly next to nothing..
Sounds good idea to me
 
Neighbour then. Can have a look if you want.
@vfr12, thanks very much for the kind offer. i will dm you shortly.

I've emailed the builders (and architect) to make it pretty clear it's in everyone's interests that the EWI be done properly. I can't force them to outsource it, but have suggested they do just that.
 
I've emailed the builders (and architect) to make it pretty clear it's in everyone's interests that the EWI be done properly. I can't force them to outsource it, but have suggested they do just that.

Good news is architect agrees i should get the pros in for this, so now it's just a matter of negotiating that with the builders. Oh, happy days.
 
First of all, big thanks to @vfr12 for coming round today, and to Dansouthcoast84 for offering to help over the phone if needed.

The builders didn't take kindly to my friendly advice to outsource or seek advice. They simply responded "we don't need a specialist", despite just this morning asking more silly questions regarding the installation process. LOL

So, i replied asking them to detail their experience with EWI installations. And armed with newly acquired knowledge from vfr12, i also asked them a series of specific questions. That went down even less well; needless to say they didn't answer those questions and are even now trying to claim it was never part of the deal. Despite it being shown on the drawings and in the schedule of works!

With them now also claiming the contract is invalid, i'll just have to get my architect (who's also the contract admin) to step in. Not sure we will be able to resolve this one; though, at least they seem to be willing to crack on with the stuff they do know how to do.
 
First of all, big thanks to @vfr12 for coming round today, and to Dansouthcoast84 for offering to help over the phone if needed.

The builders didn't take kindly to my friendly advice to outsource or seek advice. They simply responded "we don't need a specialist", despite just this morning asking more silly questions regarding the installation process. LOL

So, i replied asking them to detail their experience with EWI installations. And armed with newly acquired knowledge from vfr12, i also asked them a series of specific questions. That went down even less well; needless to say they didn't answer those questions and are even now trying to claim it was never part of the deal. Despite it being shown on the drawings and in the schedule of works!

With them now also claiming the contract is invalid, i'll just have to get my architect (who's also the contract admin) to step in. Not sure we will be able to resolve this one; though, at least they seem to be willing to crack on with the stuff they do know how to do.
I'm sure you got a detailed quote, so knock the ewi off from it and give it to someone who you can trust if you still want to carry on with the builder. Or just stop everything, I'm sure you making stage payments and get everything organised and set in stone with a new contractor who will either cover all aspects or will sub out the specific trades.
 
I'm sure you got a detailed quote, so knock the ewi off from it and give it to someone who you can trust if you still want to carry on with the builder. Or just stop everything, I'm sure you making stage payments and get everything organised and set in stone with a new contractor who will either cover all aspects or will sub out the specific trades.
No, they did not provide a broken-down quotation. Said it was too time consuming, and i didn't push for it. I have to be careful about withdrawing work or cancelling the contract. Aside from the fact i have already paid them more than the value of the work they have completed thusfar, they also have contractual rights.
 
No, they did not provide a broken-down quotation. Said it was too time consuming, and i didn't push for it. I have to be careful about withdrawing work or cancelling the contract. Aside from the fact i have already paid them more than the value of the work they have completed thusfar, they also have contractual rights.
Fair enough I guess.

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