Ceiling failed

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ClarkPlastering

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I had a call back about a job I did a couple of weeks ago which I found odd,
I had skimmed 5 artex ceilings, on this job I decided against sheeting as the artex was very light,
It turned out to be a blessing that I didnt add the extra weight of the plasterboard on this job,
the other four were perfect although the living room ceiling had several cracks, initially I assumed the bonding agent had failed me but it turned out to be the disturbance caused by the skimming & perhaps the extra weight,
After inspection it appeared that the plaster had adhered to the artex nicely although the cracks were cause by the ceiling bowing and dripping 150mm in some places as the stips had separated from the concrete ceiling above, I had no option but to take the ceiling down which uncovered the strips held in with very few masonry nails which couldnt take the weight,
because they werent secure attaching plaserboard to it would have made no difference as they couldnt hold the strips to the concrete ceiling that was up initially anyway, I carried about a few checks before skimming each ceiling to check it was sound and there was no indication this would have happened. it goes to show you are never entirely sure exactly what a ceiling is attached to and the standard of the work before you are working on top of, so there is a lesson there,
Anyway, I assured the customer I would see him right and get the ceiling resheeted and skimmed, but I cant help thinking its not my work that failed, I'd never leave a job like this though so I will secure these battens and re-sheet, skim even though its going to cost me.

I want to know what others would have done in that situation upon realising it wasnt your work which had failed?
Also are there any methods to prevent this happening? keeping in mind it wasnt known to be a concrete ceiling with only a few masonry nails holding the frame and sheets

Ta
 

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Tuff luck there mate not your fault at all, easy to see what the problem is , looks like you were in the wrong place at the wrong time , hope you get it sorted and best of luck in the future .
 
I certainly wouldn't be paying I'm surprised you didn't notice the ceiling flexing when you started skimming if they have a problem with the other ceilings are you gonna fix them for nothing?
 
Yeah I appreciate your replies, it was a wrong place at the wrong time situation although the natural reaction is to please the customer, I will at least ask for the money for materials, he's a nice enough guy I'm sure he will agree to that
 
Not your problem bud..

I would have walked them through the issue and maybe just charged for stud work and boarding to keep the customer happy..


That's gonna cost you a couple of tonne in mats!



H
 
It was solid when I finished the job, it even dried out well, then when it dropped two weeks after the cracks appeared as you'd expect.
An important thing to remember is of the ceiling was that shape when I skimmed it then there would be no cracks, only movement after the plaster sets would cause cracking.
It's difficult to claim to have nothing to do with the problem as from his perspective the ceiling was flat, then when I skimmed it, it bowed.
 
Problem here is it all needs to come down now, new battens fixed and old ones secured,they should be paying towards this
 
ClarkPlastering said:
It was solid when I finished the job, it even dried out well, then when it dropped two weeks after the cracks appeared as you'd expect.
An important thing to remember is of the ceiling was that shape when I skimmed it then there would be no cracks, only movement after the plaster sets would cause cracking.
It's difficult to claim to have nothing to do with the problem as from his perspective the ceiling was flat, then when I skimmed it, it bowed.
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It was the final straw/camel scenario and not your fault, bodged job in the beginning and you are paying for the cowboys sins, hardly fair
 
tell the people it is not your work that is dodgy but the work of the people who done the ceiling in the first place,,say you will go 50/50 with them to repair it,, but make it clear you are not responsible for the other ceilings should the same thing happen to them,, i take it the building is more than 10 years old
 
Yeah it's about 40 odd years,
Thanks for the suggestions it's something I'll just need to take on the chin, it's the first time this has happened in the past ten years so it's not a regular occurrence, I thought it would be of benefit for people to see that simply double sheeting wouldn't solve every artex problem as sometimes the odds are just stacked against you
 
If you had of overboarded it you would have seen the massive centres and been able to advise the customer that it needed ripping down and shoring up. Thus earning you money instead of costing you it.

Hindsight is wonderful thing though...
 
I had a similar situation went to skim a garage ceiling as the guy wasn't happy with the builders work who'd fire boarded and skimmed the ceiling. About a month or so after I'd been in got a call saying there was loads of crack appearing I went back to find the so called builder had put joists in at 1200's. The Guy was gutted when I said it's all gotta come down n be re done.
 
Really like flynny says experience would have warned you about the integrety of the ceiling flexing and it could have been a problem taken in hand it's all the wrong size timbers it's a proper John Wayne job
 
I'm surprised the ceiling didnt flex while skimming after revealing the 600 centres hanging down like that, but artex and a years of paint seemed to keep the boards rigid so there were no tell tail signs of bad workmanship until the call back unfortunately,
I was also surprised the plasterboard didnt come away from the battens first as they were held up with pins rather than nails, the whole ceiling was put together without considering building standards or regualtions
 
Explain and be clear it's a dodgy ceiling and not your fault. Without ripping it down your where never to know that the original wasn't correct.
Take lots of photos incase they get arse'y and try and shaft you with the bill.and all blame

www.michaeljadams.co.uk
07841919406
Fibrous plaster mouldings.
 
This trade is very much a live and learn trade , you need both forsight and hindsight and perhaps the odd couple of bags of good luck , just learn from it and move on , hope the customer helps you out :RpS_thumbup:
 
Yeah good answers, unfortunately the only lesson from this is sometimes you win, sometimes you lose! There hasn't really been any sure fire ways of unraveling how to prevent this, I'll just need to wait till I'm an old geezer as it wouldn't happen to them, they never miss a thing ha
 
Perhaps just the last bit of this years bad luck, I'll not manage to fix it till the start of new year, fortunately nobody is living in the property so no huge disruption for them.
I'll get to it in 2014 and see if that years any kinder to me
 
Tricky one. I'd like to think that I'd have spotted it but don't know for certain if I would have :RpS_unsure:
I don't offer to over-skim ceilings, ever, and always tell the customer that I will be over-boarding and can't be held responsible for hitting cables/pipes etc. which the customer normally accepts. I reckon if you'd boarded it, those poorly fixed battens would have become obvious very quickly. It's a lesson to all of us though, so thanks for posting and sharing :RpS_thumbup:
You're very lucky if the customer is being anything like fair about it, cos some would be sitting in alternative accommodation right now (at your expense) until you repaired all of these [now] unstable ceilings :-( Have you checked your Liability insurance to see if they can help?
 
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ClarkPlastering said:
Yeah good answers, unfortunately the only lesson from this is sometimes you win, sometimes you lose! There hasn't really been any sure fire ways of unraveling how to prevent this, I'll just need to wait till I'm an old geezer as it wouldn't happen to them, they never miss a thing ha
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Nah crap still happens to me now and again
 
I think I'll adopt your methods by stating that to customers, its certainly the case that things can go wrong regardless how much you think you've taken precaution as problems jump out of nowhere sometimes,
Zurich is a good policy I bet I could claim, although its probably going to cost around 60 for everything anyway as its only 15m2.
I'll just put it down the joys of being a plasterer, I'm also thankful that I now have yet another reason to dislike joiners LOL
 
It's a flat so obvious a false ceiling I certainly wouldn't be paying a penny towards it I might give them a fairer rate to redo all the work, if the painter painted it do you think he would accept the blame if the weight of the paint took the ceiling down? I doubt it you have done nothing wrong and done what you were asked to do.
 
I would try the 50/50 approach,if you dont ask you dont get, that way it shows to the people that you are taking some responsibly for the job ,but also shows that they have too aswell . 50/50 is a win win for both of you , if they say no , i would say im sorry but I cant afford to take responsibly for someone elses bad workmanship, hope it works out for you !
 
Yeah when you put it like that it gives it perspective, I knew it was a false ceiling without a doubt, what I was describing is how I wasn't to know the ceiling strips were not held in very well, 5 nails over each 4.7 meter length.
Definitely correct in saying I did what was asked so it's unfair then to have to accept liability for incorrect methods used many years ago when first installing the ceiling.
I was just keen to hear how other plasterers would have dealt with the situation, personally I didn't feel at the time that the customer should be paying for the ceiling twice, but you've certainly given sense to the situation
 
Might be an idea to show your customer this thread and all the posts from the various plasterers all singing off the same hymn sheet that its not your fault! This may sway them to foot these unexpected extra costs or at least meet you half way?? Best of luck with it pal.
 
ClarkPlastering said:
Perhaps just the last bit of this years bad luck, I'll not manage to fix it till the start of new year, fortunately nobody is living in the property so no huge disruption for them.
I'll get to it in 2014 and see if that years any kinder to me
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Unlucky there bud , I do work for a letting agency that manage block of flats and two of their buildings are all block and beam ceilings but are all solid plaster, they are all failing badly which means we get plenty of work. Don't think you could have foreseen that one, where are you based bud?
 
I always try put pressure on any ceiling (for movement ) and if you had done this maybe you would have seen or suspected something wrong , learn from it ! same happened to me years back but I was on books and it cost customer it was written on quote for possible and unforeseen problems, At least you haven't upset anybody other than yourself .
 
It's a pity it wasn't done right but these things happen, I'm in Edinburgh, fortunately it's only an eight foot ceiling it won't be hard to redo, it would be worse if the job was 4m up but this one isn't so bad
 
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