Dot and Dab vs Sand and Cement

What is better for old crumbly solid wall taken back to brick.

  • Dot & Dab

    Votes: 3 13.6%

  • SBR Sand & Cement

    Votes: 18 81.8%

  • Tanking + Hardwall

    Votes: 1 4.5%
  • Total voters
    22
G

grounzero

Member
Have a 1930's solid brick concrete floor terrace and have taken the ceilings down and walls back to brick. The wall is a flemish bond solid wall, really dusty and a draft can be felt through some of the gaps in the mortar.

Having read up a bit I wanted to sand and cement with a good glug of sbr + plasticiser and after adequate drying time of a week or so 2 top coats of multi finish. I hear this is what building control would recommend for the age of building and I could potentially be faced with a large fine if they got word I skimped on proper damp and draft protection to the brickwork.

Anyway.. had a couple of plasterers round for some quotes and they're all like "what u wanna do that for?" insisting dot and dab straight onto the crumbly brick "is the way forward", cheaper and quicker. I totted up the materials and I would argue that boarding is more expensive, especially if they are insulated board which building regs would want to see on external facing walls.

I'm not so keen on living in a plasterboard tent and feel sand and cement would be more in keeping with the age and type of building. With the difference in air temperature behind the boards I don't want to encourage drafts whistling through the sockets and light switches and I also want to hang a heavy 65 inch TV, kitchen cabinets etc to the wall. I also think plasterboard feels cheap compared to a good solid wall and offers less sound proofing and taking the wall out so far would eat up valuable real estate. It may also be harder to amend electrics / plumbing if I had to dig a channel in the wall in the future.

Basically what I'm asking is have I overlooked anything with dot and dab other than someone trying to offer a quick and dirty solution?
 
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I like this post very knowledgeable I’d go with sand Cement bit more labour intensive so will cost more that way and a proper job it’s your house do it your way which for me seems the correct way
 
If moneys not an option and you need insulation throw a coat of sand and cement over the bricks to tighten the bricks back up .. stud walls with insulation were needed.. your still going to have a cold room all in s&c you need some form of insulation especially if theres no cavity.
 
Formby plastering said:
If moneys not an option and you need insulation throw a coat of sand and cement over the bricks to tighten the bricks back up .. stud walls with insulation were needed.. your still going to have a cold room all in s&c you need some form of insulation especially if theres no cavity.
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I plan to insulate the outside of the building and render at a later date. I want to max out the available internal space.
 
What would be the approx difference in labour cost/time between s&c vs d&d for a 30 square metre ground floor space? (2 rooms with 1 single skin brick partition wall)
 
Formby plastering said:
If moneys not an option and you need insulation throw a coat of sand and cement over the bricks to tighten the bricks back up .. stud walls with insulation were needed.. your still going to have a cold room all in s&c you need some form of insulation especially if theres no cavity.
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It's been ok so far this winter with just the bare brick and zero insulation and 1 radiator for the whole place. Mind you I have no heating bill to compare to as it's my first winter in this house. Am hoping to install a weapons grade heating system and add an insulation layer to the outside to minimise heat escaping.
 
grounzero said:
It's been ok so far this winter with just the bare brick and zero insulation and 1 radiator for the whole place. Mind you I have no heating bill to compare to as it's my first winter in this house. Am hoping to install a weapons grade heating system and add an insulation layer to the outside to minimise heat escaping.
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Was you living in the artic previous?
Sounds like your heading in the right direction if thats the case.
How bads the brickwork ??
 
Formby plastering said:
Was you living in the artic previous?
Sounds like your heading in the right direction if thats the case.
How bads the brickwork ??
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I don't think it's been that bad!! I'll get some pictures up tonight. There are small gaps with draft coming through and spurges of cement. The old plaster wasn't in a really bad state, a few cracks here and there but after adding channels for electrics large chunks fell off so I started pulling off the loose bits to the point I thought sod it it may as well all go. The internal wall in the middle that supports the joists looks like a game of jenga, it's hollow yellow brick. The kitchen side was never plastered and has been painted over and may need a better key. I am thinking to rake out the old mortar about 20mm with a grinder to give the scratch coat something to key to.
 
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grounzero said:
Have a 1930's solid brick concrete floor terrace and have taken the ceilings down and walls back to brick. The wall is a flemish bond solid wall, really dusty and a draft can be felt through some of the gaps in the mortar.

Having read up a bit I wanted to sand and cement with a good glug of sbr + plasticiser and after adequate drying time of a week or so 2 top coats of multi finish. I hear this is what building control would recommend for the age of building and I could potentially be faced with a large fine if they got word I skimped on proper damp and draft protection to the brickwork.

Anyway.. had a couple of plasterers round for some quotes and they're all like "what u wanna do that for?" insisting dot and dab straight onto the crumbly brick "is the way forward", cheaper and quicker. I totted up the materials and I would argue that boarding is more expensive, especially if they are insulated board which building regs would want to see on external facing walls.

I'm not so keen on living in a plasterboard tent and feel sand and cement would be more in keeping with the age and type of building. With the difference in air temperature behind the boards I don't want to encourage drafts whistling through the sockets and light switches and I also want to hang a heavy 65 inch TV, kitchen cabinets etc to the wall. I also think plasterboard feels cheap compared to a good solid wall and offers less sound proofing and taking the wall out so far would eat up valuable real estate. It may also be harder to amend electrics / plumbing if I had to dig a channel in the wall in the future.

Basically what I'm asking is have I overlooked anything with dot and dab other than someone trying to offer a quick and dirty solution?
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The reason that these guys are pushing D&D is because they can't make a decent job of S&C or, possibly worse, they just don't care what's best for you and your home.
The fact you're already thinking ahead to an insulated render system shows that your head is screwed on.
 
essexandy said:
The reason that these guys are pushing D&D is because they can't make a decent job of S&C or, possibly worse, they just don't care what's best for you and your home.
The fact you're already thinking ahead to an insulated render system shows that your head is screwed on.
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Cheers, got a couple more spreads in this week to quote. If I get the same response I may have to do it piecemeal and break the job down further i.e prep the walls myself, find a builder for the scratch coat then get a spread to do the finish coat in a month or so. I don't have a budget to do everything at once. I can do a lot on my own but know my limits and have time to work out what trades I need as and when I get paid from my day job.
 
grounzero said:
Cheers, got a couple more spreads in this week to quote. If I get the same response I may have to do it piecemeal and break the job down further i.e prep the walls myself, find a builder for the scratch coat then get a spread to do the finish coat in a month or so. I don't have a budget to do everything at once. I can do a lot on my own but know my limits and have time to work out what trades I need as and when I get paid from my day job.
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Best of getting a decent spread in to do what you want take the whole lot on cos I know for certain I wouldn’t be comfortable going over someones s&c if I didn’t know them and know how much waterproofer ect had been added then the old ball ache if it did go wrong who is to blame I’d be getting someone in to do the lot in one go
 
grounzero said:
Cheers, got a couple more spreads in this week to quote. If I get the same response I may have to do it piecemeal and break the job down further i.e prep the walls myself, find a builder for the scratch coat then get a spread to do the finish coat in a month or so. I don't have a budget to do everything at once. I can do a lot on my own but know my limits and have time to work out what trades I need as and when I get paid from my day job.
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Where are you based? Maybe you could get a regular trusted person off here to take a look?
 
grounzero said:
Have a 1930's solid brick concrete floor terrace and have taken the ceilings down and walls back to brick. The wall is a flemish bond solid wall, really dusty and a draft can be felt through some of the gaps in the mortar.

Having read up a bit I wanted to sand and cement with a good glug of sbr + plasticiser and after adequate drying time of a week or so 2 top coats of multi finish. I hear this is what building control would recommend for the age of building and I could potentially be faced with a large fine if they got word I skimped on proper damp and draft protection to the brickwork.

Anyway.. had a couple of plasterers round for some quotes and they're all like "what u wanna do that for?" insisting dot and dab straight onto the crumbly brick "is the way forward", cheaper and quicker. I totted up the materials and I would argue that boarding is more expensive, especially if they are insulated board which building regs would want to see on external facing walls.

I'm not so keen on living in a plasterboard tent and feel sand and cement would be more in keeping with the age and type of building. With the difference in air temperature behind the boards I don't want to encourage drafts whistling through the sockets and light switches and I also want to hang a heavy 65 inch TV, kitchen cabinets etc to the wall. I also think plasterboard feels cheap compared to a good solid wall and offers less sound proofing and taking the wall out so far would eat up valuable real estate. It may also be harder to amend electrics / plumbing if I had to dig a channel in the wall in the future.

Basically what I'm asking is have I overlooked anything with dot and dab other than someone trying to offer a quick and dirty solution?
Click to expand...
Dot and dab is quite common even on external facing walls, not sure of any regs contrary to that or rules suggesting thermal boards.

If you got drafts coming through the bricks you need them pointing in before the wet gets in too, if it is the traditional solid Plastering you prefer then as the customer you have every right to prefer that. Drying times will be a bit slower though. I always think solid plastered walls feel a bit cold to the touch. Plasterboards and skim a bit warmer?
 
There are regs when you strip a full house external or internal if you have a keen BI involved, all to do with U values it's been discussed :)
 
Sand and cement is far far better job. Cheaper on material more on labour. Putting plasterboard on a solid wall is f**k**g stupid when u think about it.
 
I’d go scratch coat sand and cement,waterproofer , leave for a few weeks , float and set in hardwall.
Before everyone jumps on me , I’m going this way as the hardwall is more forgiving cracking wise and warmer to the touch
 
superspread said:
I’d go scratch coat sand and cement,waterproofer , leave for a few weeks , float and set in hardwall.
Before everyone jumps on me , I’m going this way as the hardwall is more forgiving cracking wise and warmer to the touch
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Why throw extra money on a top coat? I never have problems with cracks if the mix is right and it has time to dry. To be honest i usually skim two days late, Fair enough sand and cement is not a great insulator but I would rely on other things for that, I would maybe do the outside first if possible but this time of year it may backfire drying wise.
 
flynnyman said:
Why throw extra money on a top coat? I never have problems with cracks if the mix is right and it has time to dry. To be honest i usually skim two days late, Fair enough sand and cement is not a great insulator but I would rely on other things for that, I would maybe do the outside first if possible but this time of year it may backfire drying wise.
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Yea agree with you , it was more if I was doing my house so obviously only extra money for materials , but I can’t argue with you on this one
 
flynnyman said:
Aaaaah probably why you can't find a real plasterer ;)
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The guy who skimmed my 3 bedrooms and hallway back in September came up from Cornwall and lived with me for a week. Worked 6 days solid with me as his labourer. The firm he worked for wasn't happy as it was very short notice. I paid him above his normal rate and chucked in a refina finishing trowel he loved using as a bonus. Was really hardworking and quality was a done to a very high standard so the bar has been set for anyone else I get in.
 
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