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For smaller companies or squads, we would probably look to group a number together with a larger sub-contractor, makes life a little easier, the induction is a full day and individuals will be skills tested prior to them being offered to a larger sub-contractor, we monitor pay and conditions as well as quality and we a really dim view of poor payment practices of any supplychain member, it reflects badly.

Any and all welcome.

Owls once i can use the PM facility i will get my details over, not an issue if busy at the moment, as i say it a long term thing so it may be beneficial in the not to distant future.
 
Collo said:
These are rates we are paying at the moment, i think re-training is the key reading the posts but i think trying to stay away from the boom and bust mentatlity, having a steady stream of work at a decent rate was my thought, maybe not to everyones liking though.
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what you have quoted regarding rates isnt that great and on housing at those rates the lads will not always pull the 800 you speak of week on week if at all, it simply does not work like that the 17 ish rate is lower than i used to receive as a bonafide tradesman working for a render firm 10 years ago. I would be surprised on that money if men are fitting backwraps to openings/penetrations, butterfly patches and stress point patches when the contracts managers back is turned, less not even get started on the number of pins they put in. all ancillary work that used to be paid to subbies on a per Nr basis a decade ago.

An approved business with gangs and the EWI nvq's - as my company is would struggle to operate on those rates due to overhead/costings and knock down to the tradesmen/subbies etc. you will need your own employees at those rates. lets not forget in this industry there is alot of bad weather days plus a near two month below temp winter - lads need to cover their bills in the summer for this period also. the government targets are high but lets not forget that everything the gov. says hardly ever makes sense.

feel free to PM. if you cant but are interested in sensible discussion my links are there on the left or 07921711838
 
I did say that they where operative rates, we would expect to pay companies a higher rate for obvious reasons.
We have site based technical compliance technicians who maintain boarding patterns, d*m**o 5 etc and re-inforceing patches, wrapping etc is required to meet the particular system and we comply rigidly.
Yes we have an equal number of polish and UK directly employed operatives, we treat all our employees irrespective of nationality with parity, we do not use the polish contingent as cheap or substandard labour force or a means to drive down rates.
 
Collo said:
Hi all, new to the site, and reading mixed responses and posts across the board, whats your thoughts on the emerging EWI industry and perceived rates for silicone topcoats and dashed finishes, using Wetherby's, Weber, Alumasc phenolic and EPS systems.

What would you be looking at for the following as an all inclusive rate, this isn't a cheap is best question as we all know you get what you pay for, and do you think the potential for skills retraining at no cost would be beneficial to the plastering industry to facilitate the current upturn in the industry?

Your constructive thoughts would be greatly appreciated

What would you expect a gang to get away in meterage for the the week based on the following and how much would be a a fair labour only rate.


Base Rail inc window and verge trims and Board =

Topcoat and Mesh =

Dashed finish =

Silicone Finish =

Prices to be fully inclusive of any accomodation costs.

Look forward to the colourful responses no doubt



Collo regards to lads earning 800 quid a week based on you're expected targets did you base it on lads paying out for digs?
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Sounds like the fat cats have moved in a already to bleed this green deal dry before it even started.
 
We as business, i have had some great feedback from some very well informed long standing members on this forum, for whom i have tried to be as open and honest as i can without being to commercially explicit.
That has shown a number of companies show an interest, and with all things its about balance and negotiation, we get it right and a business relationship starts and hopefully blossoms, we don't then it doesn't.
To consider that the driving force is always to screw someone, is not shared by me and gives a negative view of British Industry and one the greatest building industries worldwide.
Ive asked if the rates are workable, only two replies have indicated what a reasonable return maybe with some caveats to weather and ease of installation, all the others seem to be geared towards deciding that the horse has already bolted

Let me know if you have capacity and we can discuss skillsets and rates and see if we can meet some common ground.
 
Collo said:
For smaller companies or squads, we would probably look to group a number together with a larger sub-contractor, makes life a little easier, the induction is a full day and individuals will be skills tested prior to them being offered to a larger sub-contractor, we monitor pay and conditions as well as quality and we a really dim view of poor payment practices of any supplychain member, it reflects badly.

Any and all welcome.

Owls once i can use the PM facility i will get my details over, not an issue if busy at the moment, as i say it a long term thing so it may be beneficial in the not to distant future.
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Ive sent you a pm, to see if we can do anything.
 
Collo said:
Fair Enough, all of the area's below have a minimum number of 250 Properties and many well in excess of 400 all of which are under contract adn are expected to be delivered by year end with more schemes ready for the new year, if the rates i stated above are poor then let me know.

Alternatively i'll just post the requirements as and when, just thought reading some of these posts that the quality trades people might want some input or discussion on whats in the pipeline.

As for numbers being pie in the sky and the figures been wrong, there is an awful lot of investment and positioning being undertaken to facilitate the obligated parties being able to deliver carbon savings when the funding for loft and cavity reduces significantly later this year, by some rather large household names, i think someone has already mentioned Tesco.
With 6 million HTT properties requiring external wall i think its more question of when rather than if.
As far as RSL's struggling to get the investment, alot of the scheme below also include private schemes from multiple funding sources.
I suppose its whether you take a cynical view due to past experience or decide that maybe someone for a change just maybe talking a little sense.


Anyone interested please feel free to inbox me and i will discuss on a business to business basis.


North East
Liverpool
Swansea
Pontypool
Coventry
Birmingham
South West (Muliple Sites)
Leicester
Rotherham

Collo
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just do what the rest of theses firms do employ load of east Europeans have s**t job done happy days
 
If any of you guys aren't interested then please don't clutter the thread with crap, there are places on the forum for venting your frustrations.
 
To be honest we have a mix of labour, our largest contingent are English and we employ from all parts of the UK, and from around 50 other countries for that matter, from every race and ethnic background, as for the quality of workmanship, we only have one standard, thats why we have lost as many English sub contractors and labour as we have other nationalities.
I'm sure that there is good and bad in whatever line of work your in, but accepting poor quality for a cheap price isn't acceptable in any walk of life or industry, worst still expensive prices and poor quality and i've seen plenty of that as well.
 
Collo said:
I did say that they where operative rates, we would expect to pay companies a higher rate for obvious reasons.
We have site based technical compliance technicians who maintain boarding patterns, d*m**o 5 etc and re-inforceing patches, wrapping etc is required to meet the particular system and we comply rigidly.
Yes we have an equal number of polish and UK directly employed operatives, we treat all our employees irrespective of nationality with parity, we do not use the polish contingent as cheap or substandard labour force or a means to drive down rates.
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righto sounds good.

thats good to hear
See this is basically my job for most part of the day when we are on site, i have a policy where by every step of the installation is witnessed and ticked off. obviously my overhead needs covering so rates would need discussing for a set up like mine i work on the tools also but do not get the output of the Mtr.rate because i have other duties to cover.

I never got your message by the way try again, i will send you an alternative
 
Collo sent me the details to become a subcontractor but i need an office full of people to sort the H&S, Method Statements, Environmental Impact etc etc, have to decline the work on the basis that i just cant afford office staff, unless anyone on here knows how to sort the paperwork out for me?
 
Render Systems said:
Collo sent me the details to become a subcontractor but i need an office full of people to sort the H&S, Method Statements, Environmental Impact etc etc, have to decline the work on the basis that i just cant afford office staff, unless anyone on here knows how to sort the paperwork out for me?
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I have the same!

Its a case of having to wear many hats!

At the end of the day, organisations need to satisfy themselves with the credentials of the supplier, with whom the buck stops, and that usually is the owner/manager.

As long as all bases are covered with nominated key people and documented procedures, this will generally tick all boxes.
 
Render Systems said:
Collo sent me the details to become a subcontractor but i need an office full of people to sort the H&S, Method Statements, Environmental Impact etc etc, have to decline the work on the basis that i just cant afford office staff, unless anyone on here knows how to sort the paperwork out for me?
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sooner or later steve you will have to get round to it.

I havnt seen a tender this year where the MC hasn't asked for either CHAS acred/risk and method by a registered H&S officer plus updates and visits from the same officer/ on site NON tools employees covering such matters as customer liason and or SWMP and logistics etc at the end of the day its going to get worse not better

the dead wood in the industry make the money nowdays mate
 
i totally understand I must have honestly had 1.2m worth of tenders through this year which are a doddle to do but the paperwork stuffs me i just like to tender, get the job and do them... there are companies out there that you can subby all the paperwork to and they sort it all out, but then you have to still wait 60 days from invoice to get paid... so we are taking the chances... not the big boys, what happened to me on a couple of large contracts last year where the main contractors were desperate to have tradesmen on the job... Interserve and English Landscapes had pre filled in H and S etc etc filled in for me so ijust signed them did the site inductions and then did the job... what about the PAS2030??? F me i just found out about that 2 weeks ago... I think i will just sell my company and let one of the big boys tender for all the work i get through on the big developments, or go into partnership with a company who has all the paperwork in place, im a plasterer and have been for 37 years and thats all im interested in doing the job not paperwork... so if anyone out there can make use of my company and websites and all the tenders i get every week then make me an offer
 
No disrespect but I'd imagine a plastering company is worth absolutely **** all when the contractors realise the bloke they've been dealing with for the last 10-20 years isn't there
 
NO irishspread. this work is for pagans only

Collo on the five houses per week quant

house = board and fix =1 day
mesh next day could take up to 2 or three days to dry especially using wthrby hp
primer leave for 12 hours next day acrylic/silicone

there will be half finished houses between other works. then return visits so to get that output there will have to be 10 houses on the go at once eventually getting textured up on a 5 per week basis
 
Must have mmr jab and BBC,MRI and bcg.im pretty sure that most people on here,99% maybe are completely incapable of completing 5 houses a week.unless they have a hundred or so illegal immigrants working for them.everyone has just seized on the recent announcement/dreams of idiot politicians who want too appease European regs on house thermal ratings.some knob In an office making shitloads from exploiting desperate plasterers.rant over.discuss.
 
lilharbs said:
Must have mmr jab and BBC,MRI and bcg.im pretty sure that most people on here,99% maybe are completely incapable of completing 5 houses a week.unless they have a hundred or so illegal immigrants working for them.everyone has just seized on the recent announcement/dreams of idiot politicians who want too appease European regs on house thermal ratings.some knob In an office making shitloads from exploiting desperate plasterers.rant over.discuss.
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The UK is the easiest country in Europe in which to borrow money – this is correct because I read it somewhere this week. There is a wealth of experience in EWI amongst contributors to this thread. There is considerable business experience from contributors ranging from one-man bands to others with large turnovers. If between yourselves you cannot create an organisation to take on the big boys who know nothing of EWI other than an easy profit at the expense of the working class, then ask yourselves why? Taking on the role delivers a bigger piece of the cake to the working man – what’s holding you back?
If it is beyond the abilities of PF contributors to do this because the organisational demands, and financial risk takes you out of your comfort zone then Collo and Tesco and Joe Bloggs will do it to and cream off the profits.
Maybe you are looking at a silver lining rather than a cloud and should be grasping an opportunity.
 
sliemasteve said:
The UK is the easiest country in Europe in which to borrow money – this is correct because I read it somewhere this week. There is a wealth of experience in EWI amongst contributors to this thread. There is considerable business experience from contributors ranging from one-man bands to others with large turnovers. If between yourselves you cannot create an organisation to take on the big boys who know nothing of EWI other than an easy profit at the expense of the working class, then ask yourselves why? Taking on the role delivers a bigger piece of the cake to the working man – what’s holding you back?
If it is beyond the abilities of PF contributors to do this because the organisational demands, and financial risk takes you out of your comfort zone then Collo and Tesco and Joe Bloggs will do it to and cream off the profits.
Maybe you are looking at a silver lining rather than a cloud and should be grasping an opportunity.
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always the voice if reason is steve.......:RpS_thumbup:
 
I totally agree artisan, but to get to the stage where you have everything in place would cost a fortune not to mention the amount of finacial backing you need to work for 2 months supply and fix before you get your first payment.
Lets say i do for example
2 houses a week for £7,500.00
that equals 16 x 7.5 = £120,000.00 of turnover (income expected in)
my outgoings are £4,000.00 per house labour and materials total £64,000.00
I will have to suffer this 64K constantly as i would only ever get paid on a monthly basis after the initial 60 days so i would be acting as a bank for the big companies, I would always be 2 months ahead of them, so if they are the suppliers why dont they just employ people who have all the nvq's and experience and finance their own work.
 
Thats a wonderful example Mr Render, and I especially like the near on 50% hypophetical margin you have.
I'l lback you if we are working with those magins sir.

Collo, I have sent you contact email. We cover London and the south East .We do provide SWMS JSA COSHH etc and would consider any works you have in these areas.
 
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I understand you are setting up a training centre in Uckfield ( East Sussex) ??.

Let me know when you are down next and I will pop in.
 
I don't know alot about EWI but I look at the system in regards to the domestic market and think what a load of b*ll***s, totally impractical being so thick 100mm, and the cost is ridiculous, I've spoken to a few of my customers about it and they simply don't want to know, its not just the price of the system its changing the sill depths, stonework etc etc.

Customers in solid wall houses would be better off investing in a high efficiency condensing boiler, insulation throughout, double glazing, positive ventilation to deal with condensation.

10 years time these systems will have changed there will be something 20mm with good insulating properties.
 
FreeD said:
I don't know alot about EWI but I look at the system in regards to the domestic market and think what a load of b*ll***s, totally impractical being so thick 100mm, and the cost is ridiculous, I've spoken to a few of my customers about it and they simply don't want to know, its not just the price of the system its changing the sill depths, stonework etc etc.

Customers in solid wall houses would be better off investing in a high efficiency condensing boiler, insulation throughout, double glazing, positive ventilation to deal with condensation.

10 years time these systems will have changed there will be something 20mm with good insulating properties.
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So what would use to prevent heat loss from a SW property?? Your high effiicency condensing boiler will be working overtime to regenerate heat continually escaping!

Insulation at current regs is 60mm (phenolic), window sills can be extended, trimmed up or overclad. Stone work effect can be replaced.

EWI is as expensive as you want it to be. Sure, materials aren't cheap but some guys out there put it out of reach for the Homeowner with their ridiculous profiteering rates( ie those doing if for £80 - 120 pm2)
 
22jasper said:
So what would use to prevent heat loss from a SW property?? Your high effiicency condensing boiler will be working overtime to regenerate heat continually escaping!

Insulation at current regs is 60mm (phenolic), window sills can be extended, trimmed up or overclad. Stone work effect can be replaced.

EWI is as expensive as you want it to be. Sure, materials aren't cheap but some guys out there put it out of reach for the Homeowner with their ridiculous profiteering rates( ie those doing if for £80 - 120 pm2)
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Most homeowners are never going to see the return of installing such a system even with grants...look at the people who have gone for solar panels for example, only people who have got money to blow and the majority of these houses dont need EWI.

30% of heat lost through walls...its not a massive amount and can be reduced with thermal linings etc if need be.

We have a solid wall property with all the above fitted and its very cosy, heats up quick, retains heat and the boiler is on an eco setting, bills are reasonable.
 
With energy prices set to rise continually over the coming decades, i'd say that 30% of heat lost through walls represents a significant cost to the homeowner.

5 years ago gas and leccy for the year was average £300-400 pa, now its double and more- this will continue to increase over the years.

By thermal linings I assume you mean internal wall insulation? Proportionately more expensive than EWI after factoring in redecoration costs after second fix adaptions.

I'd say a £4500 investment(including grants) on a typical 80m2 house is a reasonable payoff for increased energy savings over the life the system installed in light of future energy cost increases.
 
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