need help lads

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dont wanna kick this one off again - but i thought "we" had decided that wba was the best gear for use on artex for lots of reasons...

also on this frickin cream of tartar debate - it is an acidic potassium salt, not a fking sauce that goes on fish or any other bollox - google it if youre that interested... in cooking it can be added to ingredients to raise their resistance to heat, therefore delaying cooking (eggs and egg whites for instance) amongst other things - so in theory i guess it could slow the chemical heat "going off" reaction when plaster meets water too... how effective it would be and in what quantaties you would need to use it i dont know...

either way you can bet your ass that if the trade considered it worthy - they'd have made, marketed and stuck on the shelves a long time ago to make an extra buck.
 
all i know is i use it all the time mainly cos i dont have a labourer so it helps give me a bit more time to clean after mixing and then stop spreading to mix again.i use it inwinter always only in first coat and still get 3 gauges comfortably .also it s no different in terms of usability than without as said dont over use .
when doing conservatories in summer it can be a god send believe me
 
bg have a product on the market with retarder in its called MULTI FINISH read essexandys post the size is there for an xtra helping hand
 
Just ask yourself ? why isnt the Tarter sauce up for sale in ur local b and q next to the scrim and 50 mm screws if it so fcking good at retarding plaster?
 
as grand wizard said its called size not quite the same you would use in a fibour shop but good enough to get you out of troubled,defo works, ive used it in casting and setting ,no probs at all, but then again i now what im talking about.
 
skimmin2day said:
Just ask yourself ? why isnt the Tarter sauce up for sale in ur local b and q next to the scrim and 50 mm screws if it so fcking good at retarding plaster?
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Probably the same reason the scrim and 50mm screws arent next to the cream of tarter and food colouring in the baking section in asda. :RpS_tongue:
 
well ive been using it for at least 20 years and had not 1 problem in fact how i found out about it was

i was doing a large project in america a new high school and we had some finish flash setting and the USG rep came out armed with loads of cream of tartar as it happens we told him we wanted what we had paid for but the tip came in handy
 
Well guys youve convinced me .I have just orderd 15 litres from Makro as i got a big job comming up after christmas Involving 2 walls and a ceiling.
I only really wanted 10 litres but sales rep told me plasterers are bulk buying it with buckets ,anti freeze, stella, and shower heads..
So i didnt wanna go short and purchased the lot.
What the fcuk il do with 6 multi jet shower heads i dont know?
 
Hi mate
Just split the ceiling into 2 put half on once it takes up and you give it it's first pass then put the rest on.

GOLDEN RULE "KILL THE SUCTION "
 
gitznshiggles said:
dont wanna kick this one off again - but i thought "we" had decided that wba was the best gear for use on artex for lots of reasons...

also on this frickin cream of tartar debate - it is an acidic potassium salt, not a fking sauce that goes on fish or any other bollox - google it if youre that interested... in cooking it can be added to ingredients to raise their resistance to heat, therefore delaying cooking (eggs and egg whites for instance) amongst other things - so in theory i guess it could slow the chemical heat "going off" reaction when plaster meets water too... how effective it would be and in what quantaties you would need to use it i dont know...

either way you can bet your ass that if the trade considered it worthy - they'd have made, marketed and stuck on the shelves a long time ago to make an extra buck.
Click to expand...

nice one, i wondered what the crack was with it...
we had some tri-sodium citrate in france and i stuck it in some one coat pretty quick setting stuff that was out of date and it did hold it back, but it also then went off all at once but then, i was trying to treat it like english plaster...

reisitance to heat eh? makes sense.. :RpS_thumbup:
 
Now i aint no chemist but my understanding of the ingrediants for Tartar sauce are.........

Freshly made Tarrtar sauce is made with pretty much same ingrediants as mayonaise (egg yolks ) vinegar (acetic acid ) and lemon juice ( cirtic acid ) and few chopped herbs of ur choice for flavour.

Tartar sauce you purchase in a tub will be dried egg (so it keeps and doesnt cause samonela) with above ingrediants.

So my equation is how on earth will dried egg, vinegar and lemon juice help re***d plaster?
 
Cookery and chemistry lessons aside, I still don't know why you'd need to re***d a 22m2 set?
 
skimmin2day said:
Now i aint no chemist but my understanding of the ingrediants for Tartar sauce are.........

Freshly made Tarrtar sauce is made with pretty much same ingrediants as mayonaise (egg yolks ) vinegar (acetic acid ) and lemon juice ( cirtic acid ) and few chopped herbs of ur choice for flavour.

Tartar sauce you purchase in a tub will be dried egg (so it keeps and doesnt cause samonela) with above ingrediants.

So my equation is how on earth will dried egg, vinegar and lemon juice help re***d plaster?
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ok, at a guess, and it is a guess cos i too am no chemist...

what if plaster, when it comes into contact with water, forms a reactive alkaline solution that starts the setting process. So with that in mind it would stand to reason that adding acid to an alkaline solution would go some way to neutralising the ph level, thereby slowing down the reactive process...
im assuming the type of acid makes a difference otherwise you may as well chuck a capfull of vinegar in the mix so the citric acid must also have a part to play...
the tri-sodium citrate we used is an ingredient in the manufacture of lemonade, a crystaline substance, we added a teaspoon or so to a mix....
it does hold it back...
but the stuff we had was over 12 months out of date (the plaster, not the chemical)
 
Like you say Chirs it could only be the acid that slows it IF and its a big IF it does at all.

But surely if vinegar or acid alone slowed it down everyone one on the planet would know about it and it would be sold in b and q next to finnish plasterboard and pickling onions?
 
maybe if you add vinegar alone it just doesnt go off at all? maybe citric acid alone does something similar? maybe when you make lemonade at home all you put in is lemons, i.e citric acid but for some reason they use 'tri sodium citrate' in the commercial manufacturing process...
maybe they use exactly the same stuff in the commercial manufacture of 'cream of tartare' for exactly the same reason? maybe it doesnt deteriorate over time? but it just happens to have the exact chemical balance that will re***d plaster at just the right rate without causing it to fail at a later date or not set at all?
guessing.. :RpS_blink:

edit: missed the last bit, but there y go anyway.. :RpS_biggrin:
 
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btw they missed something off that list of uses...

salt neutraliser...

50/50 vinegar water with a drop of washing up liquid...

50/50 acetic acid/water+surfactant=salt neutraliser@£27 for 5 litres...

bottle of sarsons malt vinegar - under a quid...
 
i agree mate but they put a retarder in multi finish so they have got a product, maybe they don't want people messing with the mix too much because then we could buy board finish and put vinegar in it...**** knows mate
 
only way to know for certain is to poor 1 litre of white vinegar in a normal mix of plaster and make a normal mix of plaster at same time and compare the set time.

Fcking shame Oasis got booted hed love this experiment wed get pictures the lot!!!!!!
 
right you lot im gonna put this one to bed.
read this first - Trisodium citrate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

now then, it would appear its used as a regulator, i.e. a control...
that tells me its easy to control the setting times using it.
it also tells me this -
plaster of paris / casting plaster is pretty much pure gypsum with no retarder, goes off like f'ck...
so, stick some tri sodium citrate in it at just the right quantity and youve got multi finish with a setting time of roughly 1.5 hours @ 20 degrees celcius...

add less and it reduces the setting time, add more and it extends it.

its what bg use as THE retarder for multi, so using a tad more is fine...

p.s. they use it in lemonade as a preservative / acidity regulator...
 
skimmin2day said:
Nah steve im still not convinced becuse i believe BG would sell such a product at an 5000x the cost of vinegar which cost fck all
But it is a maybe?????????
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it IS about right, the tub we had was maybe 300ml, about the size of a redbull can, and it was about 14 quid...
 
im not saying your wrong chris but why do you think they dont sell it at the merchants? what ratio would you add it then and would you use cream of tartar or vinegar? i havent read the whole thread as there are lots of big words and i get confused
 
S h i t i just cancelled my 15 litre of tartar sauce order with Makro and re orderd 50 litres of pickling vinegar 6 cans of stella 2x tubs of anti freeze and 6 multi function shower heads.
 
steve the simple answer to ur question is BG have pushed mf as much as they can before is weakons the mix it can be nothing else,they put more retarder in summer months and less in winter months.
Make no mistake theyd be selling pickiling vinegar all day long if they could if it works??
 
i dunno mate, i messaged them a while ago and they told me theres nothing to put in the mix to slow it down, doesnt mean they are right though. although its the same old same old, if you did it and something happened they wouldnt cover you if they found out. although i have to admit it i needed to do it and i knew it worked then i'd be tempted
 
i think they dont sell it down the merchants because no general site plasterer has needed it. bg do all the work for you giving you a product with a consistent setting time, you know how much you can throw on in one go and you get used to it. within reason obviosly. if the setting time was silly tight, like casting plaster you be throwing a metre on, laying it down, trowelling it up, another metre rolling on and on... hence the 1.5 hour setting time, extended by up to another hour by adding another freshly mixed coat should cover most instances....
were having this discussion because someone has encountered areas they cant handle with a standard plaster.
maybe bg should start manufacturing 2 types of multi, 1 with a 1.5 hour set and 1 with a 2 hour set....
the lutece stuff i was using in france does exactly that, theres the lutece 2000 L and the lutece C...
nisus will confirm, the L is a 2 hour set, the C is a 1.5 hour set...
f;cking about with the retarder ratio is asking for trouble unless you know what your doing, bg do all that for us...
its perfectly possible to purchase the retarder, you just have to know where to look, maybe the merchants should stock it? but can you imagine the compaints when some f'ckwit overdoes the dose and sits there all day waiting for a set to go off and it just doesnt? dont forget things like temperature affect the setting time too...

its a gamble to use, especially when your used to a particular set time, you never know exactly how much time youve got, ill bet its a complicated formula thats been worked out over a long period of time by the boffins at bg alongside people who do this job day in, day out for the last 20 years, NOT people who have been doing it 5 minutes and are still learning how to use a trowel....

if you try it, dont go mad cos there was one area i stuck loads in as a bit of an experiment and i swear to god i could have sponged it back to life the next day....

1 teaspoon of the trisodium to a bag of multi i reckon will give you an extra 1/2 hour to 45 minutes...

as for vinegar? ive never tried but id start with a similar amount, maybe a capful to a bag...
 
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