Price we pay for a persons skill

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henry

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When we look at the bigger picture on what we all pay for a persons skill , I often wonder were plastering ranks.
Hairdresser calls round will cut and colour 2 persons and give the old man a trim £50 plus £5 tip
3 hours gone.

Carpet fitter 1 bedroom carpet £40 two hours gone

Plaster skim bedroom walls only labour £100 possible 6 hours gone, for you ask thats not what I charge most do.

Heater plugs change on van cost of plugs £22 1 hour work £100

Sparks comes in changes fuse box to a trip system labour £200.
I think plastering seems to have the shittie end of the stick here.:RpS_thumbup:
 
Its strange aswell because these other skilled workers seem quite open about their prices and dont seem to worry about this undercutting each other. Maybe if we were more open about pricing things would get better?
 
i can remember a time when the "local" jobs were discussed by the "local" spreads, prices were agreed among them all, and then it was decided which spread would go for which job, at least that's what happened where i lived, pity something like this doesn't happen now
 
too many clowns working for beer an drug money, it's a bonus on top of their dole money ! but people dont see tthe bigger picture , their happy if they getthe job done on the cheep
 
well i have always found other spreads in general as back stabbers, and deliberately undercut each others work thats the name of the game competition ,the Tories call it !! lol it's always been to easy to learn to swing a trowel around then call yourself a plasterer !! when you are not !
 
Plastering has always been a dog eat dog game especially on site you get these pricks coming round you unit to see what your doing and when casually talking to you their eyes are everywhere and asking you how long it's gonna take you they get right on my tits fcuk off and worry about your own shite
 
i can remember a time when the "local" jobs were discussed by the "local" spreads, prices were agreed among them all, and then it was decided which spread would go for which job, at least that's what happened where i lived, pity something like this doesn't happen now

Where was that.......communist Russia?
 
The only time I know in 40 years of being in the trade when spreads get paid well is in a boom period. When demand outstrips supply. In the present economic climate it is supply outstripping demand.

The customer couldn't care less about our income, the cheaper the better. But lets stop and look at ourselves compared to other trades. Plumbers for example. They are an intelligent bunch and in demand all year round more so in winter. They don't undercut in fact the opposite they at least price match and keep their prices worth working for. My plumber for my property side charges £35 an hour and hardly ever does an 8 hour day. His attitude is if you don't like it then find someone else. On the other hand he is intelligent, honest and on time. Never a problem with his work. He does however usually have to compete for boiler changes but he does not get upset if he loses the job.

Electricians again is a job where intelligence is needed and qualifications. It brings with it responsibility as if he does his job wrong like the gas fitter he could kill.

Then there are us plasterers. Hard dirty slog. No qualifications needed most of the time, and our actions are unlikely to kill. It is not so much an intelligent job and can attract some numpty's into the trade. You might not be able to read and write or even do arithmetic (i have a spread working for me who is illiterate) but he can plaster walls as good as the next man.

Plumbers, electicians and other 'clever' trades live usually in area's where there is money but a plasterer can often be found on the rough part of town, likes his cans of Carling and fags. Runs around in old clapped out dirty vans. It is these low lifes who can live cheap and know how to work the system that can undercut the good spread who comes from a good back ground and has done reasonably well at school.

As for their customers well so long as they are happy with the work why should they give a monkeys? And if they are not happy well move on to the next bargain spread and hope this one turns out ok.

So before we moan, lets look at who we take on. Are they from the good side of town and will want to stay there or have they come from the dregs of society and can be comfortable staying there.

It will never change. I have a struggle selling quality rendering to young couples they often go for a cheaper option. Being 55 I find it is the middle aged people up that wants to pay for peace of mind and perhaps over the years have learned the cheapest is not always the best. Plus reaching 55 and being in the trade for 40 years does account for something, something the younger customer has yet to learn.
 
When we look at the bigger picture on what we all pay for a persons skill , I often wonder were plastering ranks.
Hairdresser calls round will cut and colour 2 persons and give the old man a trim £50 plus £5 tip
3 hours gone.

You couldn't give my old woman the number of your hairdressers, 50 nicker for three people's hair with colour,lol

Carpet fitter 1 bedroom carpet £40 two hours gone

Plaster skim bedroom walls only labour £100 possible 6 hours gone, for you ask thats not what I charge most do.

Heater plugs change on van cost of plugs £22 1 hour work £100

Sparks comes in changes fuse box to a trip system labour £200.
I think plastering seems to have the shittie end of the stick here.:RpS_thumbup:


You couldn't give my old woman the number of your hairdressers, 50 nicker for three people's hair with colour,lol
 
Definition is the problem here, what is a plasterer, I know some who are plasterers full time but cannot skim ceilings(well one guy actually) others who cannot do render, others who cannot tack boards, flattening a bit of skim on 4 metre square seems to be where plastering as a trade starts at... We are rarely in big demand, the papers advertise for carpenters all the time, carpenter can have half a years work in one refurb , we have two maybe three weeks.. but then again the sparky and plumber have less time than us on site but are more in demand, thankfully in 25yrs I was only quiet in 2009 as prices fell madly. Its a game of balance as no one waits for plasterers as we are in the middle part of a job between first and second fix for the "intelligent" trades...
 
Definition is the problem here, what is a plasterer, I know some who are plasterers full time but cannot skim ceilings(well one guy actually) others who cannot do render, others who cannot tack boards, flattening a bit of skim on 4 metre square seems to be where plastering as a trade starts at... We are rarely in big demand, the papers advertise for carpenters all the time, carpenter can have half a years work in one refurb , we have two maybe three weeks.. but then again the sparky and plumber have less time than us on site but are more in demand, thankfully in 25yrs I was only quiet in 2009 as prices fell madly. Its a game of balance as no one waits for plasterers as we are in the middle part of a job between first and second fix for the "intelligent" trades...
polished plastering £100 a metre in london, polished concrete the same..
 
Its not only us my wife works for the NHS they are trying to employ medical secretarys on the minimum wage. If they make a misake when typing something up you could end up getting the wrong treatment. All that responsability for the same money as a floor cleaners.
 
You can't keep moaning about what other people earn ,I'd like to be a prem footballer but I'm not.if not then retrain to be a spark,plumber ,etc,I'm happy enough with plastering and with what I earn.
 
Plastering has always been a dog eat dog game especially on site you get these pricks coming round you unit to see what your doing and when casually talking to you their eyes are everywhere and asking you how long it's gonna take you they get right on my tits fcuk off and worry about your own shite

sooo true, coming with the small talk, when all they are there for is see how quick your banging one out, and quality of work
 
The only time I know in 40 years of being in the trade when spreads get paid well is in a boom period. When demand outstrips supply. In the present economic climate it is supply outstripping demand.

The customer couldn't care less about our income, the cheaper the better. But lets stop and look at ourselves compared to other trades. Plumbers for example. They are an intelligent bunch and in demand all year round more so in winter. They don't undercut in fact the opposite they at least price match and keep their prices worth working for. My plumber for my property side charges £35 an hour and hardly ever does an 8 hour day. His attitude is if you don't like it then find someone else. On the other hand he is intelligent, honest and on time. Never a problem with his work. He does however usually have to compete for boiler changes but he does not get upset if he loses the job.

Electricians again is a job where intelligence is needed and qualifications. It brings with it responsibility as if he does his job wrong like the gas fitter he could kill.

Then there are us plasterers. Hard dirty slog. No qualifications needed most of the time, and our actions are unlikely to kill. It is not so much an intelligent job and can attract some numpty's into the trade. You might not be able to read and write or even do arithmetic (i have a spread working for me who is illiterate) but he can plaster walls as good as the next man.

Plumbers, electicians and other 'clever' trades live usually in area's where there is money but a plasterer can often be found on the rough part of town, likes his cans of Carling and fags. Runs around in old clapped out dirty vans. It is these low lifes who can live cheap and know how to work the system that can undercut the good spread who comes from a good back ground and has done reasonably well at school.

As for their customers well so long as they are happy with the work why should they give a monkeys? And if they are not happy well move on to the next bargain spread and hope this one turns out ok.

So before we moan, lets look at who we take on. Are they from the good side of town and will want to stay there or have they come from the dregs of society and can be comfortable staying there.

It will never change. I have a struggle selling quality rendering to young couples they often go for a cheaper option. Being 55 I find it is the middle aged people up that wants to pay for peace of mind and perhaps over the years have learned the cheapest is not always the best. Plus reaching 55 and being in the trade for 40 years does account for something, something the younger customer has yet to learn.

Times are changing though, time was when you could live off your reputation of your skill/quality of work.
Now as well as being a good tradesman you need to have a good business head,.
As well as being sharp on your selling skills and promotion ie websites etc. People will still pay for quality and a good portfolio of work helps, as well as the area i guess, im fortunate in that i operate in an afluent area so people have no issue paying 10,000 grand plus for the rendering of there house.
A genuine passion for what you do helps, as in my case im genuinely intrested in rendering and get real job satisfaction in what i do.
pick an choose your clients wisely helps aswell.

I cant speak for the plastering game as im out of that now, but with modern render systems and modern building techniques ie durisol systems etc the building games changing, and im affraid you need to change with it to have an edge over your competators, but i guess it depends where you want to be.

You can still make a good living at this game,[apart from days like today when were snowed off] and in my reasonably short spell of 14 years ive done alright, but i guess i might have a different view of it when ive been in the game 40 years as Rigsby has.
 
That was well said Owls. You have had the good fortune of the 2000-7 era which we all did well. That was the boom period and now we are in a bust period. I am in a City of 600,000 people so quite a mixed bunch but I can show work that was done as far back as 1973. I have an excellent portfolio of work going back decades do an excellent presentation but people still shop around. No shortage of renderers in this neck of the woods.

What I am getting pissed off with is my website pulls in the enquiries and I am always the first to quote. The customer does not know what they want but a flat rendered finish coloured that you do not have to paint. Out come the samples and an explanation of the advantages of each one. Then it is 'give us a price for every option'. It takes ages to quote and I have been used as a rendering consultant.

Once the customer has been educated and has an idea of cost then it's time to get out there and find a competitive quote. I do go into quite a bit of technical detail and I wonder if with such in depth knowledge I come across as talking expensive. Well my methods are not cheap and they are not going to be. If the customer wants to take a chance and economise then thats there lookout.
 
That was well said Owls. You have had the good fortune of the 2000-7 era which we all did well. That was the boom period and now we are in a bust period. I am in a City of 600,000 people so quite a mixed bunch but I can show work that was done as far back as 1973. I have an excellent portfolio of work going back decades do an excellent presentation but people still shop around. No shortage of renderers in this neck of the woods.

What I am getting pissed off with is my website pulls in the enquiries and I am always the first to quote. The customer does not know what they want but a flat rendered finish coloured that you do not have to paint. Out come the samples and an explanation of the advantages of each one. Then it is 'give us a price for every option'. It takes ages to quote and I have been used as a rendering consultant.

Once the customer has been educated and has an idea of cost then it's time to get out there and find a competitive quote. I do go into quite a bit of technical detail and I wonder if with such in depth knowledge I come across as talking expensive. Well my methods are not cheap and they are not going to be. If the customer wants to take a chance and economise then thats there lookout.

Agreed it was good 06-08 but were finding it good going at the moment to be honest.
Were one of the biggest outfits in the area, so as such we on average complete a project a week, so i can send potential clients no matter where they are in the county to look at something weve completed, so people get the idea that if weve a lot of work on and have completed numerous projects in there town on there doorsteps, we must be doing something right and opt for us in most cases, 8/10 projects I quote for we get.
I agree you can spend half your life quoting [im on the road a day a week] but i find explaining the benefits of through coloured render or acrylics that you can render over existing substrates usually wins the day, as well as warranties, sound working methods etc, also i provide all my own scaffold which is lucrative.
even your appreanace or what you turn up for at someones house can effect it, i also meet a lot of architects and devlopers so i always were logod gear coat, jumper etc and on the odd ocassion a suit, and ive now bought a ten year old fiesta to turn up with after recently doing my weekly pricing session in my mrs range rover sport and getting some right flak for it after not having a van available on one ocassion, lesson learnt.
 
Agreed it was good 06-08 but were finding it good going at the moment to be honest.
Were one of the biggest outfits in the area, so as such we on average complete a project a week, so i can send potential clients no matter where they are in the county to look at something weve completed, so people get the idea that if weve a lot of work on and have completed numerous projects in there town on there doorsteps, we must be doing something right and opt for us in most cases, 8/10 projects I quote for we get.
I agree you can spend half your life quoting [im on the road a day a week] but i find explaining the benefits of through coloured render or acrylics that you can render over existing substrates usually wins the day, as well as warranties, sound working methods etc, also i provide all my own scaffold which is lucrative.
even your appreanace or what you turn up for at someones house can effect it, i also meet a lot of architects and devlopers so i always were logod gear coat, jumper etc and on the odd ocassion a suit, and ive now bought a ten year old fiesta to turn up with after recently doing my weekly pricing session in my mrs range rover sport and getting some right flak for it after not having a van available on one ocassion, lesson learnt.

so your supplying your own skips now aswell??:flapper:
 
Times are changing though, time was when you could live off your reputation of your skill/quality of work.
Now as well as being a good tradesman you need to have a good business head,.
As well as being sharp on your selling skills and promotion ie websites etc. People will still pay for quality and a good portfolio of work helps, as well as the area i guess, im fortunate in that i operate in an afluent area so people have no issue paying 10,000 grand plus for the rendering of there house.
A genuine passion for what you do helps, as in my case im genuinely intrested in rendering and get real job satisfaction in what i do.
pick an choose your clients wisely helps aswell.

I cant speak for the plastering game as im out of that now, but with modern render systems and modern building techniques ie durisol systems etc the building games changing, and im affraid you need to change with it to have an edge over your competators, but i guess it depends where you want to be.

You can still make a good living at this game,[apart from days like today when were snowed off] and in my reasonably short spell of 14 years ive done alright, but i guess i might have a different view of it when ive been in the game 40 years as Rigsby has.

This i agree with a passion for what you do and taking intrest in your job not just landed at someones house doing the job and thinking your done you should always look to increase your knowledge and improve your self as a tradesmen
 
Warranties? I offer the manufacturers 10 year warranty which means all the materials bought from the supplying manufacturer. Stops any cheating with the mesh and beads and means on the acrylics their base renders no s & c. Makes the material cost high but if they want the warranty thats what they have to pay.

If its a bare bones sand and cement render with acrylic on top then its 3 years. There are local render Ltd Co's offering 10 years + but how long do they stay in business for? One competitor must be going on for 50 giving 15 years warranty. I can't see him being in this business at 64? Bit of a con I think

Anyone on here Ltd? I would go Ltd and still may do yet. Only so when I retire I have no liability's. Credit is no problem. It is the accountants bill I am worried about. I pay £210 a year and thats for the business and rentals together plus any taxi's if I do a bit of that scary game.
 
so your supplying your own skips now aswell??:flapper:

very good.
but its the best 2 grand i ever spent, nearly 60 mile to the gallon, loose change to insure, and people let you out at junctions.
i give 32 grand for me other car 22 to the gallon, and no body lets you out.
 
my accountant advised me approx 6 years ago to go ltd even though i am a one man band,never felt at ease but i took his advice as you do, my bill went up from 200. quid a year to 460. quid a year which seemingly is the minumun ammount to charge, still more than i was paying, as far as i know rigsby and best to check with your accountant the goverment have closed this loophole and now as far as i know there is no tax advantage, for the past 2 years i have reverted back to a sole trader.
 
Warranties? I offer the manufacturers 10 year warranty which means all the materials bought from the supplying manufacturer. Stops any cheating with the mesh and beads and means on the acrylics their base renders no s & c. Makes the material cost high but if they want the warranty thats what they have to pay.

If its a bare bones sand and cement render with acrylic on top then its 3 years. There are local render Ltd Co's offering 10 years + but how long do they stay in business for? One competitor must be going on for 50 giving 15 years warranty. I can't see him being in this business at 64? Bit of a con I think

Anyone on here Ltd? I would go Ltd and still may do yet. Only so when I retire I have no liability's. Credit is no problem. It is the accountants bill I am worried about. I pay £210 a year and thats for the business and rentals together plus any taxi's if I do a bit of that scary game.

your render companies like parex give you a nice folder with the paperwork which the client likes, for the warranty
im limited, my accountants bills a lot, pushing 3 grand last tax year, but they do everything wages, cis returns, my own return etc. its better from a tax point of view in my case as i take my income as a dividend which means i pay less tax.
if your dealing with bigboys, a lot will only deal with you if your ltd in my experience.
 
my accountant advised me approx 6 years ago to go ltd even though i am a one man band,never felt at ease but i took his advice as you do, my bill went up from 200. quid a year to 460. quid a year which seemingly is the minumun ammount to charge, still more than i was paying, as far as i know rigsby and best to check with your accountant the goverment have closed this loophole and now as far as i know there is no tax advantage, for the past 2 years i have reverted back to a sole trader.

there never was a loophole, the only major thing they knocked on the head is company car perks, but you can still claim millage on a tax free basis.
depends on what your earning i guess,theres an advantage of [legit] paying less tax on your income at the end of the year.
 
check with your accountant owls, there deffinately was a loophole 5/6 years ago certainly at my accountants most people like myself and indeed many many others up and down the country were advised by there respective accountants to go limited ,not sure why but just ask your accountant next time you speak to him.
 
check with your accountant owls, there deffinately was a loophole 5/6 years ago certainly at my accountants most people like myself and indeed many many others up and down the country were advised by there respective accountants to go limited ,not sure why but just ask your accountant next time you speak to him.

what do you mean by the term loophole? you mean from a tax point of view?
 
That was well said Owls. You have had the good fortune of the 2000-7 era which we all did well. That was the boom period and now we are in a bust period. I am in a City of 600,000 people so quite a mixed bunch but I can show work that was done as far back as 1973. I have an excellent portfolio of work going back decades do an excellent presentation but people still shop around. No shortage of renderers in this neck of the woods.

What I am getting pissed off with is my website pulls in the enquiries and I am always the first to quote. The customer does not know what they want but a flat rendered finish coloured that you do not have to paint. Out come the samples and an explanation of the advantages of each one. Then it is 'give us a price for every option'. It takes ages to quote and I have been used as a rendering consultant.

Once the customer has been educated and has an idea of cost then it's time to get out there and find a competitive quote. I do go into quite a bit of technical detail and I wonder if with such in depth knowledge I come across as talking expensive. Well my methods are not cheap and they are not going to be. If the customer wants to take a chance and economise then thats there lookout.

I just give a ballpark figure for these jobs, takes less than an hour to put together. I tell the customer if they decide to go ahead they will get a full written quotation. Works 50% of the time, the rest go for the cheapest whatever.
 
what do you mean by the term loophole? you mean from a tax point of view?
yes it was fetched in by the then labour goverment and suddenly overnight it was more advantageous to be a limited company, personally i never felt at ease with it, but i took my accountants advice, but approx 12/18 month later they realised the error and changed the rules, next time you see your accontant have a chat with him about it he will give you more details,but going by what you say about how many lads you have on for you,your work load etc , deffinately go limited
 
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