EWI and Render

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J

JRW1

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Hi

New to this forum so still finding my feet!

In short I am part of a family run construction company who have recently ventured into EWI simply because the amount of work there is about through out the UK.

Subbing in the North East at the minute as a 5 man full system team doing relatively 'OK'.

Just trying to get the feel of things in this sector as I am told its going to get fairly busy next year?

Is it worth sticking it out? dont want to get too sucked in and let our own work and client base suffer?

After being approuched direct by the princible its something we have considered but dont want the responsablity of enlarging the work force and the hassle that goes with it?

As always 'payment' is my main concern and was wondering how this is usually structered on council run projects.

I know there were goverment policies in place to ensure regular payments were made to contractors but how effective has this been?

Its probably safe to say in an ideal world it would be financially benificial to cut out the middle man.

thoughts? :RpS_unsure:
 
Welcome to the Forum,

It is definitely worth sticking out. With all the the government have promised etc work in this area will increase massively. Still though, it probably not worth putting all of your eggs into one basket, I think the EWI side of work will really only be happening in the summer due to the English weather. Rain and cold causes quite a few problems, as it does with Scratch Render, but thin-coats is less forgiving.

If you need any training or materials we supply JUB and Knauf Insulation and we can get you on a course to be an approved installer.

Best of luck
 
JRW1 said:
Hi

New to this forum so still finding my feet!

In short I am part of a family run construction company who have recently ventured into EWI simply because the amount of work there is about through out the UK.

Subbing in the North East at the minute as a 5 man full system team doing relatively 'OK'.

Just trying to get the feel of things in this sector as I am told its going to get fairly busy next year?

Is it worth sticking it out? dont want to get too sucked in and let our own work and client base suffer?

After being approuched direct by the princible its something we have considered but dont want the responsablity of enlarging the work force and the hassle that goes with it?

As always 'payment' is my main concern and was wondering how this is usually structered on council run projects.

I know there were goverment policies in place to ensure regular payments were made to contractors but how effective has this been?

Its probably safe to say in an ideal world it would be financially benificial to cut out the middle man.

thoughts? :RpS_unsure:
Click to expand...

I could spend all day answering your points, and a lot you should already know yourself to be fair, if your in the game, and without being daft a lot of what youve posted is nonsense
If your refering to the green deal, then yes it will get busier next year, but does that mean that you are going to win more work at profitable rates i dont know, only you know your margins.
If you dont want the hastle, then dont undertake it then.
Every project is different, there not going to have the same terms and conditions.
Im taking it you have your PAS 2030?
In my experience some margins are tight, and most projects I get, I decline because the margins are poor.
I have a couple of projects to start next year, where im the principal contractor so im cutting out the middle man as you say, but the criteria you need to meet is heavy and you will need to be CHAS registered etcetc the need to show company records with your cash reserves , thus showing you have the funds or access to funds to finance projects.
 
owls said:
I could spend all day answering your points, and a lot you should already know yourself to be fair, if your in the game, and without being daft a lot of what youve posted is nonsense
If your refering to the green deal, then yes it will get busier next year, but does that mean that you are going to win more work at profitable rates i dont know, only you know your margins.
If you dont want the hastle, then dont undertake it then.
Every project is different, there not going to have the same terms and conditions.
Im taking it you have your PAS 2030?
In my experience some margins are tight, and most projects I get, I decline because the margins are poor.
I have a couple of projects to start next year, where im the principal contractor so im cutting out the middle man as you say, but the criteria you need to meet is heavy and you will need to be CHAS registered etcetc the need to show company records with your cash reserves , thus showing you have the funds or access to funds to finance projects.
Click to expand...

This is what I suspected. For a 3 man gang like mine doing one job at a time it could be more hassle than what it is worth. I tend to stay clear of contractors and builders, there is not enough money in it to outweigh the risks. Think i will keep to being domestic only.
 
Plasterers1StopShop said:
Welcome to the Forum,

It is definitely worth sticking out. With all the the government have promised etc work in this area will increase massively. Still though, it probably not worth putting all of your eggs into one basket, I think the EWI side of work will really only be happening in the summer due to the English weather. Rain and cold causes quite a few problems, as it does with Scratch Render, but thin-coats is less forgiving.

If you need any training or materials we supply JUB and Knauf Insulation and we can get you on a course to be an approved installer.

Best of luck
Click to expand...
do you do courses then 1 stop ?? i would be interested in a course on this ,i fancy getting a gang together !!
 
we do a mix of both, We have a number of domestic projects on the go as well as for devlopers etc.
Im not a massive outfit, there are only two gangs with myself plus the odd subby but if your geared up you can manage.
 
gooner59 said:
do you do courses then 1 stop ?? i would be interested in a course on this ,i fancy getting a gang together !!
Click to expand...

Hi mate,

In the new year we will be doing all of the training for JUB, Knauf Thermoshell currently use our premesis for their training. Can get you onto either mate
 
Its gonna get busy mate yeah in fact its really busy now (alot have turned their backs on externals due to the uncertain weather and the low rates - hence not worth it for some outfits)

If you have steady work with good mark profits then DO NOT let this go (the grass aint always greener) you might find your alot busier next year on GD but earning less so you need to keep both running to see whats best for you then decide where you wanna go.

I have fitted loads of commercial EWI but I look for Private work where I can and get on the tools myself then coz I am sick of jumping through hoops for little mark up on the commercial side

I remember doing the timewarp lalalalalal
 
owls said:
I could spend all day answering your points, and a lot you should already know yourself to be fair, if your in the game, and without being daft a lot of what youve posted is nonsense
If your refering to the green deal, then yes it will get busier next year, but does that mean that you are going to win more work at profitable rates i dont know, only you know your margins.
If you dont want the hastle, then dont undertake it then.
Every project is different, there not going to have the same terms and conditions.
Im taking it you have your PAS 2030?
In my experience some margins are tight, and most projects I get, I decline because the margins are poor.
I have a couple of projects to start next year, where im the principal contractor so im cutting out the middle man as you say, but the criteria you need to meet is heavy and you will need to be CHAS registered etcetc the need to show company records with your cash reserves , thus showing you have the funds or access to funds to finance projects.
Click to expand...
Rich if there's no money in it why are you involved you keep saying there's no profit in it
 
plasterjfe said:
Its gonna get busy mate yeah in fact its really busy now (alot have turned their backs on externals due to the uncertain weather and the low rates - hence not worth it for some outfits)

If you have steady work with good mark profits then DO NOT let this go (the grass aint always greener) you might find your alot busier next year on GD but earning less so you need to keep both running to see whats best for you then decide where you wanna go.

I have fitted loads of commercial EWI but I look for Private work where I can and get on the tools myself then coz I am sick of jumping through hoops for little mark up on the commercial side

I remember doing the timewarp lalalalalal
Click to expand...

have you been at the christmas sherry already john?
 
spunky said:
Rich if there's no money in it why are you involved you keep saying there's no profit in it
Click to expand...

Dave [correct us if ive got your name wrong]
If you gander what i put, i said most stuff that comes in i bin off, as the prices are piss poor and the economics of it dont work. Some projects are worthwhile, as said if you can cut out the middleman theres a better chance to make money at it, if you can fulfil the criteria
Some lads are jumping on the bandwagon and firms are tackling projects at unstubtainable prices, just to get turnover. It isnt a licence to print money and some are under the ilusion they can do a course and go out and earn a grand a week.
 
well i havent seen one good job yet ,everyone seems to be people chancing it council people dont know what there looking at ,you got chippies who think they can plaster thats a recipe for disaster god knows what this country will look like by the end of next yr
 
mayti said:
well i havent seen one good job yet ,everyone seems to be people chancing it council people dont know what there looking at ,you got chippies who think they can plaster thats a recipe for disaster god knows what this country will look like by the end of next yr
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There doing ewi in Gwynedd north wales now there is a mess on it joints on every lift of the scaffold don't know if the council will pass it ??
 
the firms that get awarded these contracts let anyone have a go. i got asked if i would go and put right one that the firms lorry driver had done, and this was a british standard registered company.
 
It is ridiculous what Sheffield City Council allow contractors to get away with. In the late 90,s on an envelope scheme there was a long road of Council houses being done with the render and dash being replaced in the traditional way. The gang on 1 side of the road didn,t have a scratcher so they simply criss crossed a scratch with the trowel about 250mm apart.

It is now starting to blow off after 13 years years or so. Where was the clerk of works when this was happening? I can see a lot of ewi failing in the future with short cuts being taken but I blame the contractors for letting it happen and they should be made to pay. SPS Envirowall has a 10 year warranty but the installer has to pay for the labour side of it even if it is a material defect. Permarock can take you off their installer list if you get caught doing the work wrong and good for them.
 
i know a job on ewi current thats going terribly wrong - the firm are paying low but not the lowest rates by any stretch anyway they had deadlines and couldnt get decent gangs for the price. they have ended up having to then take a chance on anyone they could find so they have one good team who I think are polish they have some other gangs one of which are from bulgaria and were supposed to be experienced ("we do this in europe for 50 years blah blah etc same old story") but have not actually done it before, I think they were in construction before but not ewi

now there is an opportunity there to re-texture all of the houses and make some coin because as we know texturing is the quick part.
only problem is this weather is so bad its not something i will commit to because its gona be raining and that means the wasted time

so you see there will be some opportunity to make some coin for sure and sometimes you will fall short. Roll on spring is what I say
 
The ewi world seems like a funny place to me. Not sure if its a road we wanna go down. The ritmo seems like the perfect tool for the job though!

Is it something that if you undertake all other aspects of plastering is easy to pick up? It all looks quite straight forward. What would he the best way to get in to it?
 
we stopped ewi years ago not enough money for the amount of work .why do you think that a ritmo would be of any use ?
 
it could spray base coat, but would need a lot of covering up. acrylic may be. some need a slight adjustment to get the required finish. a flint dash is a better finish. i would fit the systems by hand.
 
malc said:
it could spray base coat, but would need a lot of covering up. acrylic may be. some need a slight adjustment to get the required finish. a flint dash is a better finish. i would fit the systems by hand.
Click to expand...

Yes there would be plenty of masking up to do Malc but once you've seen the speed and quality of finish a Ritmo can achieve with acrylic finishes you'd never want to do it by hand again. Oh yes they do need a different spray gun.
 
with the acrylic finish i was thinking when they require a light bark finish to rubbed up. which needs a slight alteration to the material in the bucket.
 
malc said:
we stopped ewi years ago not enough money for the amount of work .why do you think that a ritmo would be of any use ?
Click to expand...

thats because non of the big developers contractors want to pay what it takes to fit the system to full spec. some prep takes time and thats why alot of jobs end up knackered.

if you get a good client who respects the installation you will be ok
 
plasterjfe said:
thats because non of the big developers contractors want to pay what it takes to fit the system to full spec. some prep takes time and thats why alot of jobs end up knackered.

if you get a good client who respects the installation you will be ok
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we only sub contracted the work labour only from the manufacturer. thay had won the work by architect nomination. therefore the building contrators had no say in the matter, the system manufacturer was able to tell the builder what was expected of them.the manufacturer was taking to large a slice leaving the labour to tight.
we stopped ewi in england and whent to holland where the labour price was about double. we had another advantage over the dutch workforce as their tax was about 40% we paid tax in uk at about 20%
 
CurrierPlastering said:
It can spray the base coats and the acrilic top coats can it not?
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thinking about it, it would be very usefull spraying dashing mortar, you could apply large areas before you need to dash, we would put the flank wall of a three story block on by hand before we would dash. that would be 4 operatives. [on ewi they are called operatives not plasterers]
 
malc said:
thinking about it, it would be very usefull spraying dashing mortar, you could apply large areas before you need to dash, we would put the flank wall of a three story block on by hand before we would dash. that would be 4 operatives. [on ewi they are called operatives not plasterers]
Click to expand...

We spray both base and dashing coats, though i think G4/5 M300 are best suited for output with topcoats. We use EZe24 for base and mesh
 
22jasper said:
We spray both base and dashing coats, though i think G4/5 M300 are best suited for output with topcoats. We use EZe24 for base and mesh
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how do you set your team up on base coat? you have got applying basecoat, scrimming, cleaning down,second fix, poss thermo rend
 
plenty of guys talking about bad jobs and feck -ups where are pic's then lads,? operatives sounds fishy !! spray !! sound mad these are council houses = matchbox lol bit of insulation,thin coat mash, top coat ,bob's your uncle ,the only bit is you are so low down in the chain of grabbers it sounds like they pay peanuts & get monkeys ..........
 
The money is there its just that the greedy fat cats at the top are taking all the cream. To many middle men with sales reps etc.
 
gooner59 said:
plenty of guys talking about bad jobs and feck -ups where are pic's then lads,? operatives sounds fishy !! spray !! sound mad these are council houses = matchbox lol bit of insulation,thin coat mash, top coat ,bob's your uncle ,the only bit is you are so low down in the chain of grabbers it sounds like they pay peanuts & get monkeys ..........
Click to expand...

we have done housing but most of the work is on tower blocks as these are made from precast concrete or no fines so every block in the country has to be brought up to standard.
they are called operatives as you do not have to be a plasterer to do the work.
 
malc said:
we have done housing but most of the work is on tower blocks as these are made from precast concrete or no fines so every block in the country has to be brought up to standard.
they are called operatives as you do not have to be a plasterer to do the work.
Click to expand...

...and herein lies the problem

My line of thought is that you become a plasterer first and when you have gained your trowel skills/quals you then specialise in a certain field such as EWI for example. - Thats how we did it anyway.

developers, government, energy providers handing out the quick quals training operatives who posses no trowel skills have caused the idea that "anyone can do it" and then they wonder why they are all having problems = its because they don't use tradesmen
 
plasterjfe said:
...and herein lies the problem

My line of thought is that you become a plasterer first and when you have gained your trowel skills/quals you then specialise in a certain field such as EWI for example. - Thats how we did it anyway.

developers, government, energy providers handing out the quick quals training operatives who posses no trowel skills have caused the idea that "anyone can do it" and then they wonder why they are all having problems = its because they don't use tradesmen
Click to expand...

I'm so pleased you've said that John as it's just what I'd been thinking every time we here another story of shoddy work in EWI.
I know nothing about EWI as yet but I'm sure that if I was shown the ropes by the right person I'd pick it up fairly quickly, as would most decent spreads. But even then you can't rush getting experience in any field. I bet most of these horror stories are about work done by "operatives" or failed spreads.
 
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