Lath and plaster ceiling fix options?

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imago said:
If you hit a rough corner hard it's quite scary unless you rode them like that 20 - 30 years ago and are expecting it. The front and back ends pitch and yaw, but not at the same time or in the same direction. It's a bit like shoving a trifle over a speed hump with an airbed. :)
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I thought only the old ones do that, but then I heard " they all do that sir" . Mine was the same. Bought it 2012 with 0 miles and two years later ohlins front and rear. What a transformation ! In generally tho, the heavier bikes have softer springs which makes the ride less bumpy.
 
vfr12 said:
I thought only the old ones do that, but then I heard " they all do that sir" . Mine was the same. Bought it 2012 with 0 miles and two years later ohlins front and rear. What a transformation ! In generally tho, the heavier bikes have softer springs which makes the ride less bumpy.
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Is that you in your avatar?
 
Olican said:
Open the window and have an oscillating fan in the opposite corner, the dust that falls is so fine it hangs in the air, will need a little encouragement to escape. Best of luck
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Yeah i thought that when i was knocking the plaster off in my bedroom. Barely made any difference and every couple of minutes i haf to bang the fan causing a cloud of dust. Oh...and i over boarded the ceiling....

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Rossi46 said:
You must do a lot of touring then? It's not a farting around on kind of bike.
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Yes I do. Last year was dead for me tho do to different comitment and couldn't do any touring neither ride outs, but hoping this year to make it up. Using it in London too. After the mods I did it's a different animal. Took it to the track at the beginning , but didn't like it. Compared to the cbr it was crap. Now I am curious to see how it will perform.
 
Rossi46 said:
Above would make it compressive strength wouldn't it? If the boards are fitted underneath as normal and the edges butted up and screwed with the correct screw length then the timbers would struggle to bow. The outer timbers are connectively supporting the inner timbers.
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They aren't compressed or stretched until the bow starts so I guess it's a moot point really. Preventing bowing is actually better with the laths as they are stronger under compression or tension. With boards if it was only 1mm per fixing 'digging in' to the side of each screw, say every 300mm on a three metre span (for easy numbers) that's still going to give you 30 - 40 mm sag centre to edge. Take into account deflection of the screw, and of the screw in the timber and it's got a fair bit of movement available.

I suppose the proof is in the number of bowed first floor ceilings, it's rare to see one that hasn't.

Without wishing to stir the pot, what about overboarding an already overboarded ceiling? The last kitchen I did with @Nisus he took the ceiling down. The lath and plaster had been overboarded, probably in the '70s, and artexed. That had then been overboarded sometime after with a skim and paint finish. Ground floor meant that the joists were 7" x 3" so nice and sturdy, but even so it's a lot of weight.
 
theplasterman said:
I not trying to and agree he says some great informative and knowledgeable stuff...but come on ..every overboarded ceiling that has been done is wrong ?
I honestly admit if I am wrong about any work I do..it's like saying put skim on 2mm thick off the back of the bag
Maybe I do need a break from forum
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Yup agreed :sorprendido3:
Lath and plaster ceiling fix options?
 
Heneage said:
Okay chaps - I've pretty much decided that it'll be a case of take down the L&P and re-board. Messy but I'm old fashioned and I think that is the right option. I reckon every room upstairs will be similar if the interesting patterns in the lining paper all over the place are anything to go by so for me I'd prefer to avoid starting to add all the weight and also not leave all the old crumbly plaster there like a wee reminder of taking the easy option....

I'm really worried about getting the plasterboard home on my motorbike though - wish me luck.

Seriously though, it's been helpful to read through thanks.
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Another little bit of advise from a plasterer who doesnt do my job "properly" apparently ......beside the other costs and unnecessary work you might embark on also worth" bearing "(not load just in mind) when the half tonne of crap gets kicked down part of the tops of the wall might as well, which will probably lead to them being stripped back to brick as well..

Not many builders will advise you about that they will inform you of the spiralling cost raising while they are on the job...fact
Lath and plaster ceiling fix options?
 
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theplasterman said:
Another little bit of advise from a plasterer who doesnt do my job "properly" apparently ......beside the other costs and unnecessary work you might embark on also worth" bearing "(not load just in mind) when the half tonne of crap gets kicked down part of the tops of the wall might as well, which will probably lead to them being stripped back to brick as well..

Not many builders will advise you about that they will inform you of the spiralling cost raising while they are on the job.
View attachment 9845
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I remember doing one where the ceiling was to come down... then pretty much all the walls fell off with it... then when I started removing the harder bits on the walls the house next doors started falling off...

This old bag came round whining at me that I had knocked her plaster off :D I politely handed my card then quoted her double :D
 
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Danny said:
I remember doing one where the ceiling was to come down... then pretty much all the walls fell off with it... then when I started removing the harder bits on the walls the house next doors started falling off...

This old bag came round whining at me that I had knocked her plaster off :D I politely handed my card then quoted her double :D
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Exactly @Danny,

I hope you took the ceilings down in your house refurb because going off the calculations I have now been made aware of within a year maybe if you overboarded the sag would be 40mm, I doubt you would be able to of then walked through the room without hiitting your head on the sag..lol
 
theplasterman said:
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Exactly @Danny,

I hope you took the ceilings down in your house refurb because going off the calculations I have now been made aware of within a year maybe if you overboarded the sag would be 40mm, I doubt you would be able to of then walked through the room without hiitting your head on the sag..lol
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I did rip them all down and took all the paint off the walls back to bear plaster :-)

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theplasterman said:
Another little bit of advise from a plasterer who doesnt do my job "properly" apparently ......beside the other costs and unnecessary work you might embark on also worth" bearing "(not load just in mind) when the half tonne of crap gets kicked down part of the tops of the wall might as well, which will probably lead to them being stripped back to brick as well..

Not many builders will advise you about that they will inform you of the spiralling cost raising while they are on the job...fact
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Aha! You are Cassie and I claim my ten pounds. I deduced this by:-

1) Your refusal to read the posts or links backing up what I'm saying.
2) You counter arguments I've never made.
3) Drama queen responses.
4) You put 'fact' at the end of an opinion hoping that doing so will make it true.
5) You've illustrated your point on a discussion about first floor (into loft space) ceilings using an image of a ground floor ceiling.
6) You describe work you don't want to do as unecessary.
7) You say that I've described you or anyone doing it as not doing your job properly.

P1ss taking aside, surely you can appreciate that if you explain the pros and cons to a customer they can decide? This means that you look more professional and knowledgeable to a customer. If they go for the additional work involved you have a longer job and earn more money. If they don't you take the quick option at no risk to yourself as they've made the decision with all the information you provided. Where is the problem with that?

Regarding your last assertion that you claim as a fact when it's merely an opinion. I can't speak for other builders, only myself. I can say with my hand on my heart, and the two people who I've worked with on the forum can back this up for the jobs they worked on, that I have never once increased the cost of a job to a customer.

I'll also go to the trouble of explaining why and how that is so. When I quote for a customer they are made aware of any choices they may have. Once those choices are made I provide a quote, never an estimate. If I have missed something, or not taken into account a factor affecting the work that's my fault not theirs, so I bear the cost. I do this because I'm confident in my abilities. I have been bitten on a couple of occaisions, not dramtically, but why should a customer foot the bill for my mistake or oversight?

Obviously if they add additional work during the course of a job then they pay extra. Before they do they are provided with a cost to do the work in writing which they can accept or not as they wish.
 
If it's a lathe and plaster ceiling it's very unlikely to be a 2x1 truss roof and a cut roof will have meatier joists. Whilst I accept all the weight and load bearing facts and figures, in 30yrs in the building industry, I've never heard of an overboarded ceiling failing.
 
Pug said:
If it's a lathe and plaster ceiling it's very unlikely to be a 2x1 truss roof and a cut roof will have meatier joists. Whilst I accept all the weight and load bearing facts and figures, in 30yrs in the building industry, I've never heard of an overboarded ceiling failing.
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Quite right, but again, to reiterate for the hard of reading, the only people who have mentioned anything about a ceiling "failing" are the ones saaying overboarding is fine to do.

The thing is, that no matter how long anyone's been overboarding ceilings, or working in the industry, the principle is one of the most basic in physics. If you have twice as much weight hanging from a joist than it was designed to carry it will bend. So you can argue 'till your blue in the face, and state as much as you want that no one's ever complained. If you overboard a ceiling you are exceeding it's design load and it will bend.
 
Personally I think your over complicating things and finding problems where there isn't one more of a sales pitch to a customer than talking to a tradesman who been doing it years that's my honest opinion
 
In closing lol, if we all did everything to the book or the letter, to do the best possible job, most of us would be sat at home, especially if you were to take h&s into consideration.

Overboard it, nothing's gonna happen.


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imago said:
Quite right, but again, to reiterate for the hard of reading, the only people who have mentioned anything about a ceiling "failing" are the ones saaying overboarding is fine to do.

The thing is, that no matter how long anyone's been overboarding ceilings, or working in the industry, the principle is one of the most basic in physics. If you have twice as much weight hanging from a joist than it was designed to carry it will bend. So you can argue 'till your blue in the face, and state as much as you want that no one's ever complained. If you overboard a ceiling you are exceeding it's design load and it will bend.
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when i have worked with a structural enginneer he designs a roof, he gets the calculations, works out the stress then add or double the required size of the timber. no one would design a roof where an extra sheet of plasterboard would be an overload.

as for the hard of reading, the members are saying that they have NOT seen an overboarded ceiling fail. i have never known any to want to put a motor bike in the loft either.
 
imago said:
Aha! You are Cassie and I claim my ten pounds. I deduced this by:-

1) Your refusal to read the posts or links backing up what I'm saying.
2) You counter arguments I've never made.
3) Drama queen responses.
4) You put 'fact' at the end of an opinion hoping that doing so will make it true.
5) You've illustrated your point on a discussion about first floor (into loft space) ceilings using an image of a ground floor ceiling.
6) You describe work you don't want to do as unecessary.
7) You say that I've described you or anyone doing it as not doing your job properly.

P1ss taking aside, surely you can appreciate that if you explain the pros and cons to a customer they can decide? This means that you look more professional and knowledgeable to a customer. If they go for the additional work involved you have a longer job and earn more money. If they don't you take the quick option at no risk to yourself as they've made the decision with all the information you provided. Where is the problem with that?

Regarding your last assertion that you claim as a fact when it's merely an opinion. I can't speak for other builders, only myself. I can say with my hand on my heart, and the two people who I've worked with on the forum can back this up for the jobs they worked on, that I have never once increased the cost of a job to a customer.

I'll also go to the trouble of explaining why and how that is so. When I quote for a customer they are made aware of any choices they may have. Once those choices are made I provide a quote, never an estimate. If I have missed something, or not taken into account a factor affecting the work that's my fault not theirs, so I bear the cost. I do this because I'm confident in my abilities. I have been bitten on a couple of occaisions, not dramtically, but why should a customer foot the bill for my mistake or oversight?

Obviously if they add additional work during the course of a job then they pay extra. Before they do they are provided with a cost to do the work in writing which they can accept or not as they wish.
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There is too much in that post for me to answer I try to keep simple.
You think overboard cause's a sag in the ceiling by what is written and will scare a member of the public into thinking they have to rip it all down..i say I never seen sag on ceilings I have done.
I am no idiot I know exactly what to advise customers,I judge what needs doing on my own experience ..i decide what is the best option that's why I am there most people relay on opinion as what is best I don't need to talk them into having more work done so I can earn more money.There is no risk and it's not a quick option.
No doubt you cover all costs of things you get wrong so do I.
And to all the general public that might read this thread for gods sake phone a plasterer for advise and a quote.
 
theplasterman said:
And to all the general public that might read this thread for gods sake phone a plasterer for advise and a quote.
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.... if you want any PLASTERING done. If the work you have in mind has or may have any structural element to it then I suggest you speak to someone who has a clue.
 
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malc said:
when i have worked with a structural enginneer he designs a roof, he gets the calculations, works out the stress then add or double the required size of the timber. no one would design a roof where an extra sheet of plasterboard would be an overload.
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OK, now we're getting somewhere. So you add double the size of timber to allow a 100% margin. Then along comes the plasterer and doubles the weight of the ceiling. How much margin is left now? That's right genius, none.

Of course as you're an expert you'll know that all depends on how old the house is doesn't it? As I'm sure you're aware structural timber grading wasn't introduced in the UK until 1984. Prior to that all the grading was done by eye. Which is why pretty much every first floor ceiling that you see in a house over 50 years old is bowed. I wonder what effect doubling the weight on ceiling joists that have already bowed would be? o_O

"Yeah no problem love, we'll overboard that for you. You'll just need to take everything out of the loft because it'll be overloaded if you don't."
"Oh thank you Mr Plasterer, you're my hero. I'm so glad I didn't involve anyone who had any knowledge on the subject." :endesacuerdo:
 
This still going on? I've got an overboard this week and no there is no motorbike in the loft but a massive water tank am I gonna still over board you bet ya,I have complete faith in my judgement and think all this einestien stuff is becoming monotonous if truth be told,backing up these theory's with links is just you trying to prove us all wrong and I can honestly say 99% of us have overboard and skimmed and haven't had a problem,think that sums up the feeling of most
 
imago said:
.... if you want any PLASTERING done. If the work you have in mind has or many have any structural element to it then I suggest you speak to someone who has a clue.
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To be fair this all got a bit stupid from the original thread post ..i not going to comment till the cows come home and agree to disagree with you..
We all think we are right
The original photos were very close up for all we all known the ceiling could of been solid and sound.
@imago I hope you have no bad feelings and wish you all the best.
I am off this thread now
Vince
 
imago said:
No bad feelings at all. No matter what the discussion/argument is on here it's all just pixels. (y)
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Think I went to person with my builder comments to be honest and don't know why I have been getting a bit bolshy on here last few days,
Enjoy your night.
 
theplasterman said:
Think I went to person with my builder comments to be honest and don't know why I have been getting a bit bolshy on here last few days,
Enjoy your night.
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Don't worry about it, the forum's like a building site in that you need to develop a thick skin and not take things personally. Fortunately most on here don't. :D
 
imago said:
No bad feelings at all. No matter what the discussion/argument is on here it's all just pixels. (y)
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I'm staying neutral on this subject as I can't be f**k*d to argue and to be honest I don't know what is best and what is right I just do what I think will help the client.
I do have a question which is for you imago.

You mention about a few extra sheets of plasterboard being an issue an can cause sagging.

Now what about what people put in there loft?
When or where is this weight accounted for and how exactly as some out there life's belongings in the loft aswell as boarding it out?
Shouldn't this be a concern more than the boards?
Just a question by the way not trying to prove a point etc.


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