Poor standard of funded work

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richardbrown

richardbrown

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Evening guys.

If like your views and opinions on this please.

I have priced a few ewi jobs recently and have lost them to the likes of British gas etc who are part funding the work so the customer THINKS they are getting a bargain.

The last job I lost involved removing and replacing about a third of the existing render which was blown and also removing a lot of failed paint and algae prior to fitting the insulation. I see that the British gas team fitted the insulation without carrying out any of this essential preparation work. The insulation was fitted poorly, no
Stress patches were fitted and the reveals were rendered directly onto the existing rendered reveals without any cleaning, primer etc.

How can British gas be fitting these systems to such a poor standard and offer the customer a 25 year warranty.

I know another fella who is fitting ewi systems to local council houses again without Ny prior perpetration works.

Your thoughts please guys.
 
Hi Richard
Good post, as you are aware each project should have a specification, most manufacturers state all remedial and any failed existing render or even concrete repairs are carried out prior to installing the system.
We monitor projects as best we can, you form a level of trust with the contractor and decide who needs monitoring more frequently shall we say. As you know I am from a plastering and rendering background, some companies have similar guys with experience monitoring there projects,whereas some rely on the sales guys, who may have good technical knowledge but little practical experience, which can be to your advantage!

Unfortunately ECO funded work has driven down prices for applicators and suppliers, so corners will be cut to the detriment of not only the system but the whole industry.
Awhile ago with a previous employer I was asked to do a site visit up north, the company installing the system won the large project purely on the basis they had access to funding, they were in fact Cavity wall installers, the work they produced was a pile of **** and thankfully was removed and rectified.
The ECO work projects are externally monitored by the likes of Stroma even the BBA, but system suppliers and installers should be responsible for the quality and correct installation otherwise we will have that Watchdog **** following our vans.
 
I know where you are coming from. There is a non local outfit making right botch jobs of ewi round my way. I drove past some council houses the other day and they were topcoating and it was chucking it down with rain!
 
I could write an essay on the poor workmanship in the EWI game now Rich the different factors and reasons etc but I dont have the energy right now. its well known the work is way way below acceptable (even though they accept it)

I have rarely seen a funded job that is being installed how I would install EWI

the main factor is the energy co's and the bandwagon firms (you know the ones driving round in vans with eco therm this n that on the side) have entered the industry with no prior knowledge or respect armed with only cost research taken in the middle of recession, and therein lies a problem in itself - they only care about the numbers.

Mass production at the lowest price. Lads I know working on pricework are getting astonishingly low rates, I wouldnt bother as there is easier jobs out there with better pay and trust me they are jobs where you dont need qualifications.

Unskilled cheap labour throwing it up as they please and to be fair to them they need a certain amount of money to survive then they are bound to cut corners on the rates they get, if they installed with care and precision looking for the highest quality finish and to spec with long lasting qulity then they simply wouldnt make any money.

Anyway thats my opinion and I dare say someone on here knows a decent couple of firms that do it the right way but I have yet to find one probably %80 of em are either capitalists firms, chanchers or desparate.

I stay away from funded social housing mostly, fraught with problems at every level.
 
So what would happen from a warranty point of view Ade. British gas told this fella he would have a 25year warranty. If the job fails and they find out it had failed due to poor prep work who is liable??? The polish subbie who is now back home? The main contractor who supposedly instructed the polski to carry out the work to spec or the material manufacture?
 
richardbrown said:
So what would happen from a warranty point of view Ade. British gas told this fella he would have a 25year warranty. If the job fails and they find out it had failed due to poor prep work who is liable??? The polish subbie who is now back home? The main contractor who supposedly instructed the polski to carry out the work to spec or the material manufacture?
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brittish gas would just pay to do it again they dont care
 
Agree with @jesssop. the manufacturer is not liable because it is down to poor workmanship on the contractors behalf and they are such a big animal they will just swallow it up and throw a team of Romanians at it to do it again. it will take a concious client to say they dont want british gas back and have them pay another reputable contractor such as you Rich :RpS_wink: to do the work at their expence.

Put it this way there is going to be lots and lots of repair/refit/remedial work coming in the near future if you know what I mean. Rich have ou eben had rates from associations to do this type of work ? You may Sh1t your pants.......again
 
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When I trained with Rockwool on their system they said that they would send someone out to inspect the work and then they could issue a guarantee on their product. But that is their product tho. Even so, if poor preparation is the fault of failure who is liable then??? I don't work with the social housing projects no more because the firm I used to sub for pulled out because they dropped the rates and took their time paying.
 
richardbrown said:
So what would happen from a warranty point of view Ade. British gas told this fella he would have a 25year warranty. If the job fails and they find out it had failed due to poor prep work who is liable??? The polish subbie who is now back home? The main contractor who supposedly instructed the polski to carry out the work to spec or the material manufacture?
Click to expand...
We were having so much trouble around here (Seattle, WA US) with EWI (or as we call it EIFS) installers that there's been some experienced hands that have gone into the EIFS inspection business. They act as quality control for the owners and technical experts in lawsuits.
 
You'll not catch richy brown banging out ewi for £17m2.

I'm far too slow and fussy.

When I walk away from a job i make sure the client is delighted, the job is immaculate and fitted to spec and I'm happy to send future clients there to see our work and speak to the owner of the house to get a feel for what we do.
I charge accordingly but you pay for what you get!.
 
Warranties for this work come in 2 guises, manufacturers and insurance backed.
Depending on the problem one of them should kick in to rectify the failed work.
SWIGA and QANW offer insurance products for this work, to access these you need to be a member of INCA or NIA.
Manufacturers will cover product failure, however in my experience the systems work only incorrect workmanship and bad detailing cause issues.
 
richardbrown said:
Evening guys.

If like your views and opinions on this please.

I have priced a few ewi jobs recently and have lost them to the likes of British gas etc who are part funding the work so the customer THINKS they are getting a bargain.

The last job I lost involved removing and replacing about a third of the existing render which was blown and also removing a lot of failed paint and algae prior to fitting the insulation. I see that the British gas team fitted the insulation without carrying out any of this essential preparation work. The insulation was fitted poorly, no
Stress patches were fitted and the reveals were rendered directly onto the existing rendered reveals without any cleaning, primer etc.

How can British gas be fitting these systems to such a poor standard and offer the customer a 25 year warranty.

I know another fella who is fitting ewi systems to local council houses again without Ny prior perpetration works.

Your thoughts please guys.
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Brittish Gas use a company called ECL they are owned by brittish gas.
They will use cheap eastern euopean labour that are managed by uk foremen that have no clue about ewi.
I have seen work they have done before and its a shambles,No system rep will put there head above the water and condemn this work because British gas will no buy from them again.
 
richardbrown said:
You'll not catch richy brown banging out ewi for £17m2.

I'm far too slow and fussy.

When I walk away from a job i make sure the client is delighted, the job is immaculate and fitted to spec and I'm happy to send future clients there to see our work and speak to the owner of the house to get a feel for what we do.
I charge accordingly but you pay for what you get!.
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Quite right. All our work is always available as reference points for new customers. We get half of our new work from this. It wouldn't be possible unless what we did was the tip top.

There is a sire up the road from me. I stopped at the lights the other day and could spot 4 mistakes in the work from my stationary position and it is only at the mesh stage.

It actually winds me up because people begin to think Ewi itself is a poor product.
Its not when installed correctly it works fine. Hence why manufacturers will warrant the product - most failings are down to workmanship.

project at schools park in wigan. That render delaminating is more than likely down to the product unless applied to a damp base coat but its in a right state now. Been on the local news because bits falling from height have worried the residents
 
I know some chancer up north managing installs from a helicoptor!lol.

Its sad to say expensive and skilled systems are being lashed up. And if goes on too long people wont want these systems as theyll think its crap and looks shite
 
I have to agree that there's so much poor workmanship being done regarding this!
i was doing this for a while but had to stop cause of bad rates....one contractor we worked for had fellow bringing in gangs of Eastern Europeans every week doing this.... Some of them had never worked on sites before.
when I asked him why he was doing this he was like "gotta try and find good workers"
some of the work that was done was so bad it was unbelievable..... Back yards not cleaned... No windows or doors washed down afterwards... Unbelievable!!!!
 
The problem is firms that have jumped on it aren't plastering firms, from what I've seen mainly plumbers who haven't for a clue about plastering and have that snobbery they usually have towards plasterers and plastering. Looking around at some jobs I've seen they have not been done by plasterers but like skimmers on sites they are not really plasterers just skimmers. Ewi is not that difficult if you are a good spread but seems everyone's having a go and these firms are letting them.
 
flynnyman said:
The problem is firms that have jumped on it aren't plastering firms, from what I've seen mainly plumbers who haven't for a clue about plastering and have that snobbery they usually have towards plasterers and plastering. Looking around at some jobs I've seen they have not been done by plasterers but like skimmers on sites they are not really plasterers just skimmers. Ewi is not that difficult if you are a good spread but seems everyone's having a go and these firms are letting them.
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I know some cracking plasterers that cant dash on EWI and it does not matter if they do a 1 day course or a 6 week course.
Weatherby and all these system designers are 90% of the reason the EWI product in the uk is a shambles because they are that greedy wanting people through training courses for extra money in there coffers.
We should have a poll on here and see who really has trade papers and who has just picked up EWI over the last few years and done one of these daft course that mean sweet feck all.
 
M4rky said:
I know some cracking plasterers that cant dash on EWI and it does not matter if they do a 1 day course or a 6 week course.
Weatherby and all these system designers are 90% of the reason the EWI product in the uk is a shambles because they are that greedy wanting people through training courses for extra money in there coffers.
We should have a poll on here and see who really has trade papers and who has just picked up EWI over the last few years and done one of these daft course that mean sweet feck all.
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I've got papers but just done a few bits on ewi to get my papers but just got the boarding which reminds me I need to get back on it for the finishing papers :)
 
I've got my ewi papers and have never been asked once to show them, the first question I get asked as a contractor, is price for fitting the system as a whole. The courses are just a revenue generator. Saying that I've been on numerous courses training excersises for manufacturers more of product awareness not learning how to do the job, and I wouldn't dream of paying any manufacturer any money, especially if your using there system.
 
I was also involved with Parex for a bit, and some of the numpties that attended the courses was unbelievable and they got there nvq2 in ewi just like that with very little evidence or competence shown, I raised this to the powers that be and nothing was noted.
 
owls said:
I've got my ewi papers and have never been asked once to show them, the first question I get asked as a contractor, is price for fitting the system as a whole. The courses are just a revenue generator. Saying that I've been on numerous courses training excersises for manufacturers more of product awareness not learning how to do the job, and I wouldn't dream of paying any manufacturer any money, especially if your using there system.
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What is EWI papers ?
Im a time served roughcaster/plasterer that done a 4 year course when i was 16 i have been doing roughcasting for 20 plus years now.
System designers have jumped on this bandwagon to make money and my veiw is if you need to go and learn how to do a 1 day 6 week what ever course on EWI you should not be doing EWI
 
owls said:
I was also involved with Parex for a bit, and some of the numpties that attended the courses was unbelievable and they got there nvq2 in ewi just like that with very little evidence or competence shown, I raised this to the powers that be and nothing was noted.
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I think this needs looking at but I think we should wait till I get my finishing quals then I can slag it to **** :)
 
owls said:
I was also involved with Parex for a bit, and some of the numpties that attended the courses was unbelievable and they got there nvq2 in ewi just like that with very little evidence or competence shown, I raised this to the powers that be and nothing was noted.
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I have seen some of the people on sites always in england funny enough and they could not spread lies never mind plaster.
There was one squad i seen dashing with his hands yes his hands in doncaster lol
 
M4rky said:
What is EWI papers ?
Im a time served roughcaster/plasterer that done a 4 year course when i was 16 i have been doing roughcasting for 20 plus years now.
System designers have jumped on this bandwagon to make money and my veiw is if you need to go and learn how to do a 1 day 6 week what ever course on EWI you should not be doing EWI
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I agree,
I've only got a trade standard nvq2 in ewi, more through being told that we had to have it by bigger outfits than me, there the rules.
of course they've jumped on it for money, we live in a free market you can't blame then.
its more for the awareness of the product rather than learning how to do it or at least it should be.
 
owls said:
I agree,
I've only got a trade standard nvq2 in ewi, more through being told that we had to have it by bigger outfits than me, there the rules.
of course they've jumped on it for money, we live in a free market you can't blame then.
its more for the awareness of the product rather than learning how to do it or at least it should be.
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Thats fair enough but they will be a line of people behind you with just nvq2 cutting your price and while the test is really how not to get your head stuck in a polar neck.
Real timeserved old school tradesmen are dying out and its a shame cause its not a skill now
 
owls said:
I agree,
I've only got a trade standard nvq2 in ewi, more through being told that we had to have it by bigger outfits than me, there the rules.
of course they've jumped on it for money, we live in a free market you can't blame then.
its more for the awareness of the product rather than learning how to do it or at least it should be.
Click to expand...

Mate how long you been doing rendering/dashing for if you dont mind me asking ?
 
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