Skim quality issues

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M1ck

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Hi,

Can anyone give me some advice please?

I have an upstairs flat/apartment approx 80 years old, which I am renovating, I’ve had a new roof and some minor structural work done and a full skim throughout. The walls are lath and plaster and many had cracks and a couple had blown plaster. All the round corners had new beading. The brief was simple, 'I want to be able to paint the walls when your finished'.

My query is regarding expected quality of the plastering! The builder says I am expecting too much to have straight plumb beads, and a flat finish without blemishes! The faults are too numerous to list, but briefly every room needs repair work, lumps bumps and scratches, corners not square, beading not straight or plumb, visible joints to overboarded ceilings.

I accept as the property is old some of the walls may not be plumb but am I expecting too much for the walls to be flat and smooth, blown plaster to be sorted, beads straight and plumb and corners as square as possible? The builder took some cornice down and where he has plastered is higher than the surrounding walls he says this is because the cornice was difficult to remove and he had not costed for it!

Unfortunately he has been paid for most of the job and seems to think I should jump to his call, e.g. he said he would come back but at a time to suit him! Theres been no apology for the issues and everytime I speak to him about it he says he thinks the job is on the whole good and my expectations are too high for a skim on an old property, even suggesting the faults will not be visible if its papered! there seems to be excuses for everything! surely as the customer it is my call as to whether the quality is good enough?

Its starting to look like a drawn out legal battle for a refund - given his attitude I don't think I can trust him anymore to do the job!
 
whats his name and wheres he from? he sounds like a right charlatan. how much did you pay him?
 
If you payed for a decent job then you are well within your rights to expect one regardless of whether the property is old or new. Was it the builder himself who did the plastering or did he get a plasterer in?
 
the spec was simple. a finish to receive decoration.
beads will be straight. no blemishes to plasterwork, no visible joints to overboarded ceilings.
i would not plumb beads or square walls up on a reskim, you would receive a quality finish to receive decoration with no other prep required.
 
From an un biased 3rd point of view there is 2 sides to every story....unless we have every possible truth from you it's hard to tell. Regardless it doesn't sound right.
Obviously if you put pictures up then that would help but if you have agreed with the builder/plasterer to do a 'quick' job then that's probably what you got.

If you have visibly blown plaster and generally bad walls to start with then a decent spread would advise what is best and never give it a 'quick go over and they will be good enough to paint' job.

New Beading generally follows the existing walls give or take a little. If they are that bad we would level the wall first.
If he's used skim beads then they should be pretty straight as they won't bend along a wall more than a couple of mm max.

If he's said to put paper on them as that will look better then he has no pride in his work at all and should be ashamed.

If you've haven't used much common sense before picking your tradesmen and have just gone for the person who was cheapest/cheaper and could do it the quickest then I'm afraid you get what you pay for.

Why would someone good at what they do that takes pride in there work,work for pennies?
Would a world class footballer play for 20k a week?
Would a top doctor work for the NHS if he could earn 5x as much doing private work?

There is no way a job should be finished to how you have described but it's has and it has happened for a reason.
Find that reason and you'll find who is blame for what has happened, whether that be him you or both.
 
Yes as danny says. There is some truth in what he is saying but with these types of jobs the pros and cons of a re skim on an old property need to be explained to the customer before the work starts.
 
It's called an "over skim" for a reason. It's the application of 3mm of skim to existing. This will not straighten walls or reveals much.
If you wanted everything unblown, straight, flat and plumb you get it re plastered. Simples. It's £10000 of £3000, your choice
 
But Irish surely with renovations if you are over skimming and you come across blown plaster then you should prep properly and advise client of work and cost.
You shouldn't just go over everything good or bad just because your over skimming!!?
I get what you say regarding over skims won't straighten walls and are there to give a smooth new finish but proper prep work must still be done to a decent extent or you don't do the job?
 
Think it's fair to say almost every Victorian/Edwardian house in London anyway, will have loads of blown plaster, my own included. If the customer only wants to pay for an overskim that's what they get. If you hack off a blown area, the area beside where you hack off generally blows aswell.
If the customer doesn't want to pay for a full re plaster they should get whatever bits they consider really bad hacked off and THEN ask the plasterer for a price
 
But clients rely on us to give them that advice.
Half the time they don't have a clue what they are asking even when they ask for something specific.
It is part of our duty I believe to advise a client what is best in regards to work that is actually required to what they want done.
Then as long as you have gave them the option and advised what's best it's there choice.

M1ck are you able to post more info and pictures?
 
irish_spread said:
When you tell them, do it properly is 10k, overskim is 3k their expectation levels drop fairly quickly.
I always suggest, hack off, float and set for 10 k or whatever. It means that 100% of the skimmers on here won't be able to quote
Click to expand...
Have you ever had any problems with BC about increasing the U values?
 
Thanks for all the replies, I wasn't expecting so many so quick! I'll try and answer in the order they came in!.
  • First up photos, I have been unable to take any photos of scratches and unevenness on my phone but these have turned out well enough to demonstrate some of the issues. if there is anyone near South Tyneside that wants to have a look drop me a line and we'll try and arrange something.
  • I'm coming close to naming and shaming, the cost for 5 rooms and 2 staircases was £2400, which is comparable with other quotes in this area.
  • I was hoping the builder was going to do the plastering as he's done work for me before to a very high standard, on this occasion he subbed the plastering out.
  • I should have made the corners clearer! I would not expect internal corners to be plumbed and squared if they weren't already, the plaster in the corners appears to be thicker than elsewhere but without hacking to off I can't be sure how thick it is, given that this is now a recurring feature I would think its the way its been applied its a difficult one to explain, I don't think the float has been parallel into the corners!
  • I have tried to be as honest and truthful as possible, and I didn't ask for a cheap or quick job, this is to be our new home for some time to come so I wanted it right! The job must not have been checked by the plasterer before he started I did point out the blown areas to the builders oppo and was assured it would be sorted! if it was going to incur additional cost to remedy then that could have been sorted. Whilst I accept a bit of give and take I would have expected someone to point out how bad the wall was on pic 02 incidentally this was one of the areas with blown plaster! The builder offered a quote comparable with other local tradesmen and as I'd used him before thought I knew the standards of his work! previously excellent! I didn't argue over price or give him a ridiculous timescale though it took 12 weeks to complete a job that should have only taken 4 max.
  • The only part of the plastering that was clearly explained was the possibility of the ceilings cracking at some point in the future!
  • I appreciate a skim is just that, I don't believe the walls were as bad before the skimming as they are now but it will be difficult to prove now.
The photos:
01 shows a hollow in the walk the bead closest was put on by the plasterer
02 is not plumb
03 shows the wall below where the cornice was removed
04 shows the are where the cornice was to be higher than the surrounding area
05 shows the areas 'repaired' by the plasterer when he had to come back its a shame photos don't show how rough something is.
 

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Yes, as Irish said, I say the best job is to hack off ,re float and skim ,second best ,hack off blown patch ,plumb beads and float out ,either can cost way,way more than a re skim.
Hack off a room and ceiling would cost £500 labour,£200 for a skip and that's at cost ,I wouldn't want this work at that cost to be honest unless I'm quiet or skint @superspread . So I'd really want circ £1000 to hack off and clear. Then to re board a ceiling,re float the room close on another £1000 labour and materials ,I'd do the skim for free if I liked you. But a re skim would cost circa £600 compared to £2000 min for hack off and redo,
That aside ,I always say pay me when you are happy with the work ,I give options and caveats with the job.but this guy has left you unhappy,he wasn't a tradesman ,,
 
Communication problem, customer wanted perfection ... skimmer wanted to reskim and move on. Without seeing the work it is hard to make a judgement. The plasterer is coming back to rectify shame the customer wants to go down the legal route. No winners in this game.
 
radford said:
Communication problem, customer wanted perfection ... skimmer wanted to reskim and move on. Without seeing the work it is hard to make a judgement. The plasterer is coming back to rectify shame the customer wants to go down the legal route. No winners in this game.
Click to expand...
Yes, eyes on it before and after ,not easy to do it here.
 
johniosaif said:
Yes, as Irish said, I say the best job is to hack off ,re float and skim ,second best ,hack off blown patch ,plumb beads and float out ,either can cost way,way more than a re skim.
Hack off a room and ceiling would cost £500 labour,£200 for a skip and that's at cost ,I wouldn't want this work at that cost to be honest unless I'm quiet or skint @superspread . So I'd really want circ £1000 to hack off and clear. Then to re board a ceiling,re float the room close on another £1000 labour and materials ,I'd do the skim for free if I liked you. But a re skim would cost circa £600 compared to £2000 min for hack off and redo,
That aside ,I always say pay me when you are happy with the work ,I give options and caveats with the job.but this guy has left you unhappy,he wasn't a tradesman ,,
Click to expand...

200 for a skip what is it a dustbin:)
 
kgreigh said:
£200ish for a 6 yard skip in our area,I bet it's about double that in London,is the extra price to do with the congestion charge?[
A neighbour had one last week 360 with the license ,I use a wait and load guy 240 for 12 yards equivalent,
It's nothing to do with the cc, the price to tip waste now has gone up so much but I'm sure that would be the same across the country
Click to expand...
 
M1ck said:
Thanks for all the replies, I wasn't expecting so many so quick! I'll try and answer in the order they came in!.
  • First up photos, I have been unable to take any photos of scratches and unevenness on my phone but these have turned out well enough to demonstrate some of the issues. if there is anyone near South Tyneside that wants to have a look drop me a line and we'll try and arrange something.
  • I'm coming close to naming and shaming, the cost for 5 rooms and 2 staircases was £2400, which is comparable with other quotes in this area.
  • I was hoping the builder was going to do the plastering as he's done work for me before to a very high standard, on this occasion he subbed the plastering out.
  • I should have made the corners clearer! I would not expect internal corners to be plumbed and squared if they weren't already, the plaster in the corners appears to be thicker than elsewhere but without hacking to off I can't be sure how thick it is, given that this is now a recurring feature I would think its the way its been applied its a difficult one to explain, I don't think the float has been parallel into the corners!
  • I have tried to be as honest and truthful as possible, and I didn't ask for a cheap or quick job, this is to be our new home for some time to come so I wanted it right! The job must not have been checked by the plasterer before he started I did point out the blown areas to the builders oppo and was assured it would be sorted! if it was going to incur additional cost to remedy then that could have been sorted. Whilst I accept a bit of give and take I would have expected someone to point out how bad the wall was on pic 02 incidentally this was one of the areas with blown plaster! The builder offered a quote comparable with other local tradesmen and as I'd used him before thought I knew the standards of his work! previously excellent! I didn't argue over price or give him a ridiculous timescale though it took 12 weeks to complete a job that should have only taken 4 max.
  • The only part of the plastering that was clearly explained was the possibility of the ceilings cracking at some point in the future!
  • I appreciate a skim is just that, I don't believe the walls were as bad before the skimming as they are now but it will be difficult to prove now.
The photos:
01 shows a hollow in the walk the bead closest was put on by the plasterer
02 is not plumb
03 shows the wall below where the cornice was removed
04 shows the are where the cornice was to be higher than the surrounding area
05 shows the areas 'repaired' by the plasterer when he had to come back its a shame photos don't show how rough something is.
Click to expand...


Feckin hell, this post has only appeared on my laptop now for some reason , saw all the rest of the posts but not this one
 
Without looking at the photos....

You said the builder subbed it out?
Did you pay the builder or the plasterer?
The lack of communication might be between the two of them, ie builder wanting it done quicker & cheaper for more profit
 
radford said:
Communication problem, customer wanted perfection ... skimmer wanted to reskim and move on.
Click to expand...


The brief was simple, 'I want to be able to paint the walls when your finished'

radford said:
without seeing the work it is hard to make a judgement.
Click to expand...

Sorry no before pics but after pics posted

radford said:
The plasterer is coming back to rectify.
Click to expand...
Plaster has been back see pic 05 Builder only wants to come back when it suits him, he promised to come back on three occasions first was two days late and no show for the other two! I work full time and can't continue to change my schedule to suit him.

radford said:
shame the customer wants to go down the legal route. No winners in this game.
Click to expand...
I don't want to go down the legal route but given the no shows and the attitude of the builder don't know what other choice I have, he is obliged to provide services within a reasonable timescale - 12 weeks for a job that should have been done in four (including other works)is not reasonable, he is also obliged to ensure the work is carried out with due care and skill!! if not then I am entitled to have the work corrected to my satisfaction at his expense or be reimbursed either part or all of the costs of the work carried out.

Jgreenplastering said:
But clients rely on us to give them that advice.
Half the time they don't have a clue what they are asking even when they ask for something specific.
It is part of our duty I believe to advise a client what is best in regards to work that is actually required to what they want done.
Then as long as you have gave them the option and advised what's best it's there choice.

M1ck are you able to post more info and pictures?
Click to expand...

Spot on!! I may not be a plasterer but with 15+ years in construction related roles I know a good job from a bad one!!
 
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